Who-ishness

[scarlettgirl]

I've been pounding away trying to get my WoM thoughts together and I've come to the conclusion that RTD is either far luckier or far more brilliant than I've given him credit for. Tying so many strings together and reaching so far back in his own mythos is pretty impressive. I sometimes forget in my annoyance of overblown spectacle and dodgy

Comments

[elisi]

yet he stayed because he was curious.
As far as I recall he stayed because Adeliade wouldn't let him leave (he just walked in from out of nowhere!) and took his spacesuit off him. ETA (from the transcript):

Doctor: Yeah, I’m sorry. Um, I - I’d love to help, but [he takes his suit from Steffi] I’m leaving. Right now.
Adelaide: Take his space suit. Lock it up [as Steffi does so, to Doctor] This started as soon as you arrived so you’re not going anywhere except with me.

It's only once they realise that they have to leave, that she lets him go. ("Now get to your ship. I’m saving my people, you save yourself. I know what this moment is - it’s the moment we escape. Now get out!")

If they'd allowed him to leave immediately (as he wanted!), it would all have gone very differently...

So, basically, he's not as morally bankrupt as you think! :)

[selenak]

What she said. He did try to leave, repeatedly.

[scarlettgirl]

I don't think he tried all *that* hard after the initial encounter. Once he was drawn into the events he became "action as usual" and he made token attempts. When he did have the chance to leave - once he'd begun to develop a relationship with Adelaide and the others - he chose to stay, to follow Adelaide from the medical ward, even knowing that he couldn't/wouldn't do anything to change the final outcome. I think there is a part of him that wants to know what happens and, perhaps a part that wants to punish himself by watching. Either way, it was more disturbing to me than the outcome.

[elisi]

Hmm. I think we'll have to disagree. Yes he's fascinated by Adelaide (I wrote about it here), but although he lends a hand, he continually distances himself from the action - like he almost gets caught up, and then pulls back. The conflict that obviously plays out inside him is heartbreaking, rather than disturbing. (For me at least.)

[spikewriter]

Gallifrey - February. Okay, this was was actually doable until they changed the date *this* year and moved it to The Bug's birthday.

Since the hotel stupidly double-booked the weekend, they didn't have a choice -- but maybe next year? The hotel is going to have to give us really good hotel costs in exchange for us being willing to move dates.

[scarlettgirl]

I'd love to, and if it goes back to the original date it would probably work.

Double-booked? Is it a new venue? Because that is grade-A stupid.

[taraljc]

Same venue as the last 4 years. It's the hotel's fault, and to apologise, they've locked in a very cheap room rate for the next 3 years I think.

[scarlettgirl]

Wow. Now that I've experienced planning and running a con I can only imagine the level of hair rippage that must have occurred over that!

[chloris]

While I agree that his attempts to leave were token (even with his spacesuit taken away, if the Doctor WANTS to leave, he will find a way), I more see this from elisi's point of view. He's stuck long enough for his usual need to help to start asserting itself even as he trying so hard to keep his distance. He knows he can't change anything but at the same time he NEEDS to change things since that's what he does and that's who he is. Not helping is tearing him apart.

However, some of this is also curiosity - his interest in knowing what really happened here and how it did combined with his fascination of famous historical figures. I don't know if I see that nearly as morally bankrupt as you do though. He can't change things, but he can know why it happened and remember them. I really loved how he spent time telling Adelaide what was to come from her sacrifice so that she could take strength from that. And then, of course, it goes all off the rails when he need to help and his hubris take over.

[scarlettgirl]

I think it was the fact that he did stay longer than necessary, and enjoyed himself that bother me most of all. As I said above, his sense of where the line is was blurry and he let himself get caught up in the action.

Perhaps morally bankrupt is too strong a term. He's shifted off-center and let himself to go too far either through curiosity or hero-worship, even before he decided to balls to the wall with the "rules".

But the resulting hubris was delicious to watch!

[chloris]

It's like he's dancing on their graves, isn't it? They're about to die a terrible death that he can't change and he's having fun and making jokes. The thing is, he basically does that all the time. From his perspective, everyone (except Jack) is about to die. If he so much as blinks, they're gone. He knows he can barely even save anyone that's right in front of him but he pushes it out of his mind and focuses on having fun in the moment.

[scarlettgirl]

he thing is, he basically does that all the time. From his perspective, everyone (except Jack) is about to die.

Well, sure, if you want to get all existential about it. ;) Although isn't that true of everyone and the maudlin trite of "live life to the fullest because you could step off the curb and be hit by a bus"? If that is truly his attitude, when he knows date certain when someone is going to die, then I think the character just got a bit creepier.

[taraljc]

NYTARDIS is actually in Tarrytown, and it's gene who does ChiTARDIS. I *may* be there to work the Green Room. It all depends on my finances after Gally. But it may be my only chance to see Simon Guerrier in 2010, and I love Simon to tiny tiny pieces.

[scarlettgirl]

Tarrytown is still good. Once I saw that it was run by the same outfit as Chicago TARDIS I went into high squee mode. I mean, I'd suffer through another sort of pro-con if necessary but I've only ever heard good things about ChiTARDIS.

I *may* be there to work the Green Room.

Oh, I do hope so! It would be lovely to chat. :D

But it may be my only chance to see Simon Guerrier in 2010, and I love Simon to tiny tiny pieces.

I just started listening to "The Drowned World" and it is awesome. I'd love to see the BF crew - their download program has been my saving grace.

[bodlon]

RTD and Benjamin Cook's book makes me feel like he's not stupid. He doesn't always make the choices I would, but I think he's well aware of his aims.

[scarlettgirl]

I really need to read that.

And yes, you're right. I get caught in the "Oh, Rusty, No!" headspace and forget how much I love the great majority of what he's done. I'm not, ultimately, thrilled with his direction (Doctor Torture!Porn anyone?) but I have a little glimmer of hope that the finale may redeem that.

*crosses fingers*