on affirmative action
is your campus atmosphere liberal?
define
i mean, is it 'free-spirited', tolerant, etc.
yes. at least ppl claim to be. altho there’s a big debate going on now-proposal 2, MCRI
oh, gay marriage. now what’s MCRI?
not gay marriage only, also affirmative action
I typed in proposal 2 and it talked about gay marriage: “Proposal 2 will amend the Michigan Constitution to prohibit same-sex marriages from being legalized by the legislature or from being imposed by judges”
i mean that’s one aspect but a lot of minority groups will be affected too
as The Economist said regarding affirmative action, it's one thing to get rid of segregation. it's another to complain because your kid didn't get into college while the kid of Vietnamese immigrants did
i don’t understand that statement, it’s a non sequitur
they’re basically saying that those who support affirmative action should consider minorities who do well without it. anyways, what does this proposal 2 have to do with UM's tolerance?
well, it will decide what ppl really think about tolerance
what do you mean?
because in front of others, ppl say things that appear progressive and tolerant but in private such as inside a voting booth they might say otherwise
what are they voting on though? Opposing affirmative action does not make you intolerant
of course it does. thats the battle field
thats ridiculous
how? affirmative action is the most concrete manifestation of ppl's tolerance towards ppl of color and minorities
LOL
what? I’m serious. u don’t understand how big a deal this is.
i do. fighting inequality with inequality
oh man, how do u think this?
it gives preferential treatment to minorities at the expense of people not labelled minorities who are absolutely not at fault
thats one interpretation of it
Why should that black guy get in if he has lower marks and the white guy doesn't? It totally goes against what a university stands for. You are supposed to aim for the best, always
the other is that from the get go, in terms of US history, these minorities have always been underprivileged. essentially this is a race problem
really? The Jews have faced a lot of prejudice. they dont seem to have a problem. Asians have been discriminated against. they seem to be doing fine. How immigrants people from third world countries, the worst off in America are still better off than billions worldwide
the Jews have been assimilated because they are white. the asians have been assimilated to soem extent because of the stereotypes of being hard workers, nerds, etc.
Do you think that the child of Vietnamese refugees didnt have to work hard to get into college?
Well, those ppl who came from other countries they have this attitude that the world is their oyster because after all they have just arrived in the land of the free, America so they have this way of thinking that they can accomplish anything and maybe thats right but for blacks-face it, the main group targeted in this debate-who have lived in america for generations but have been marginalized and live in inner city ghettoes they have been at a disadvantage. u can even argue that they are worse off than ppl from africa who are newly immigrated to the states. they have been in a disadvantage because of policies the gov't makes which in terms of education means lack of good teachers, lack of funding so that they are over generations caught up in this trap of bad education, bad opportunities if and when they graduate and it becomes a cycle. affirmative action tries to fix that chronic problem by allowing these kids to go to college
it wont
it's an attempt to level this playing field which had unfairly privileged white ppl over others
it wont. those kids know that they are being treated unequally-
im not done. it’s been proven that these previously underprivileged ppl who do graduate from college are more likely to do research on poverty, inner city problems, etc and go back to those communities and help out so that they are actually helping their communities get out of the rut whereas the white ppl who graduated do not go and try to fix these problems. colleges historically have always been on the vanguard in terms of these things. and u know what else? at the university of michigan if they prevented minorities/ ppl of color from entering, the chances of white ppl getting into the college will only increase by 1% because there are so many white applicants who come here already. and so that is a fallacy, that idea that a person of color is taking some white guy's space
and how many black people would be out?
all of them
LOL
since no ppl of color would be allowed
right. so they all would not get in except for affirmative action? none of them are good enough to get the same grades, etc. as the white folks? University of Toronto to my knowledge has no such program, yet we are I believe the most diverse campus, at least in North America. the difference is cultural; our school system as a whole is better across the board. if the US wants things to improve they need to pump funds into elementary and public schools, not colleges. affirmative action will do nothing
answering ur question “so they all would not get in except for affirmative action?” u know that’s stupid. The gov’t needs to do all those things, but it doesn’t. so universities have to take the initiative. if u wait for the government to do things for you nothing will happen. the government is white and male, not ppl of color and women. Ahahahahahahaha.
Condolleeza Rice?
Lol. One person. poster girl
its terrible; it sounds like charity to me. its like the racist laws in Malaysia that prefer the ethnic Malay and discriminate against the Chinese minority
it's obviously not charity because ppl arent charitable towards it, they are spiteful towards it.
you don't have to be charitable to give charity. you can just pretend to give a damn
well if u dont care about that a lot of ppl's jobs are in jeopardy rite now. my professors who teach asian american literature, who teach language courses in obscure languages essentially my teachers and friends and ppl i look up to. and i am also a minority. Besides, u cant compare u of toronto to u of michigan because there is not the same history. already my aunt, who teaches filipino language, one of her classes was cut off because the gov't cut funding was cut and that directly affected me because her salary pays for my education
i thought UM was private
no. it's one of the most expensive public colleges
the cuts-I’m sure are because the gov't doesnt give a crap about education, period. but thats true across the board
the gov't doesnt care about education, about diversity, about a lot of things thats why u cant expect it to make the changes for u
Im not blind to the inequalities in the US, I just dont think affirmative action will help
why not? in Toronto u dont have to worry because it's already diverse but here it's the vanguard on that issue. it's so much more politicized here and ppl have so much opinion on it
because it goes against the idea of striving for the best all it is is a desperate attempt to cover up the inequality
anyway who is to say that we are not the best? dont u think i deserve to be here?
I do. which is why its not needed
do u think the other ppl dont deserve to be here? and its not like everybody is given this chance. it's just a very very small part of the population.
it has an horrific effect on the psyche, I dont care what anyone says
how does it have a horrific effect on the psyche? and besides, its not true
that they give preferential treatment to ppl just because of their skin color, to know that you would not have been at that college if you were not Black and given special treatment? whats the criteria?
what it is is that if there are two ppl of equal academic standing--absolutely equal--and one just happens to be black, the black person will be allowed in first. but i mean if u look at the population by race of this school whites are still the majority. it's almost laughable. blacks are like 12% thats it
yes, thats the US percentage. America happens to be a majority white country
actually the U of M population doesnt mirror the American population perfectly. theres a disconnect. they used to publish it before, how the poupulation is divided by race. but i dont know if they do it anymore
The US census does. The state of Michigan is 83% white, 14.92% black, 2.1% Asian
before i was like, what do i need this info for? but now that this proposal is in danger of passing, then it seems like something i should pay attention to
it also has info on Ann Arbor: 75% white, 9% black, 12% Asian. im not convinced that affirmative action will help in a fundamentally racist society. just because you have the degree doesnt mean the employer will hire you or that you will be able to do much for your community
it is not a cure all but its a step
but it shouldnt be required
as i said, those ppl who do get a degree tend to go back to those communities and help
if they can
i do think it should be required because universities should stand up and say, this is the ideal that we want to stand up for --equality and equal opportunity--and it doesnt meant that in doing this we are lowering our standards. i dont think it should be seen as a lowering of standards -that sort of argument is a slippery slope. as if these ppl would contaminate the purity of hte university and make it less great
i dont think it lowers standards, I think it changes the university's priorities
why should the two be mutually exclusive? i think that is the challenge that the university faces, and i think michigan has been very good so far in meeting these challenges
I dunno. of course, im not Black, and I dont live in America. even if I did, I could pass for white, I guess...so its easier for me to talk
Yeah. ur not racially marked. so in that way ur like the jews
lol. I dunno, maybe I hate the idea that affirmative action is needed. it seems like such an affront to the dignity of the people it is meant to help, to say, youre not treated well, so here, let's try to make up for it. its a reminder of how bad the US has treated its minorities. the problem is that they are almost victimized again. its like a cloud of suspicion. did he get in because he's black...?
thats the thing--ppl have these ideas about what affirmative action is about but they dont see the whole picture. and thats because they dont know for example that getting in is not just because of race-like i said before if there are two ppl who are equal in all aspects except race, the black person will get in. besides there arent many instances of that just because the number of white of ppl who apply here overwhelms any other group
if there aren’t whats the need for it then?
what do u mean? its precisely because there arent many instances of that that it has to be maintained. the need for it is to try to get more diverse ppl into the university, to try to encourage more ppl of different backgrounds to come here
I see. over the next century America will see a gigantic demographic shift. unlike black people, Hispanics could actually become a majority
i think prop 2 is almost like a really last ditch, desperate attempt to keep the status quo