Conversation
This is an amazing chat conversation I had with my good friend Thalia. ("Do you see your father often?" "No, actually, we're just good friends.") It deals with sexism, racism, and the Myth of the Woman. Check it out. "Me" = Thalia.
Kestrel: You know, today I watched a documentary called A Class Divided which reminded me of what you said about The Angry Eye. It was the same experiment, except this AMAZING teacher did it in a 3rd-grade classroom in the early 70s. It was very effective.
me: ooo, what was the experiment based on? eye color, the same thing?
Kestrel: Yes.
me: wow
Kestrel: And the minority eye color
had to wear black collars, too.
10:53 PM me: oh my god
intense
Kestrel: And within 15 minutes, she had the kids discriminating against their friends.
And she asked them the most AMAZING questions.
Brilliant, quick, intense, fascinating, thought-provoking questions.
me: wow, i would love to be part of that experiment
just to discover
how i would react!
Kestrel: Yes. I mean, I'm a little scared.
But yes.
me: because of course you always think
"i would never do that!"
Kestrel: We'd be on opposite sides!!
me: oh god!
Kestrel: Mwa-ha-ha-ha-ha-haaa....
me: you're right!
haha
i just really wish
i could genuinely experience
the minority thing
Kestrel: yes.
me: i mean, sure i'm a woman
and i've definitely experienced the bad side of that
but i feel like
race is very different
Kestrel: The instant judgement.
yeah
I feel like with women
it's much more subtle
much more deeply embedded
in very primal instincts.
I think racism is a lot more about cognition.
In the frontal cortex
or whatever it's called.
me: true - you know something really weird?
Kestrel: I mean, a lot of it is instinctive too
yeah what?
me: i've probably already talked about this
but in this whole presidential race
it's been totally acceptable for people to say terrible sexist things about clinton and palin
but no one was allowed to breathe a word
Kestrel: Exactly. I think it will be a VERY long time before we have a female president.
sorry
me: a NEGATIVE word
about race
Kestrel: I interrupted.
yes.
me: no, that's fine :)
you read my mind!
Kestrel: Yes.
i think few people really get
how unconscious sexism is.
It's like it's part of the foundation
and the slightest questioning of the foundation
makes it all shake badly
and it's scary.
me: it's like, "oh, we've gone through the sensitive-to-women's-issues phase"
"now we can discriminate again"
Kestrel: right, because being a feminist has a bad connotation now
due to a lot of women
who didn't think
but just blathered.
god damn it.
me: funny thing
just today in german class
we were talking about racism and sexism
because the three fairy tales we read for today
portrayed jews in this disgusting way
pretty much like horrid little rodents
Kestrel: MAUS
me: and had cliched lines like
"The Jew was happy about the little profit he had made."
(oh my god you're right)
(about maus)
(totally)
and the strange thing is
that no one was as offended by the jew thing as me
Kestrel: yay PVPA!
uber-sensitivity forever!
me: (yah, i know! those memories...)
me: and no one really got offended by the gender thing
except kempf!
Kestrel: Ah...
he was like
"They're treating the woman as a commodity!"
"This is shocking!"
and we girls were like
"Whatever. That's old news."
Kestrel: Right, because it's cool.
To not get offended.
me: "We're used to it, believe us."
Kestrel: Because if you get offended, guys won't like you.
me: exactly!
you're so right!
wow
Kestrel: Yep.
It sucks.
me: that's crazy
Kestrel: Nobody likes a feminist.
me: i never thought of it like that, but you're totally right
Kestrel: You know what I think sexism really is nowadays?
me: what?
Kestrel: In its more subtle forms?
I think it's just that in a woman's life
in every interaction
men are continually much more conscious of her sexuality
(not orientation)
me: right
Kestrel: (just general sexuality)
me: yeah
Kestrel: then when dealing with men.
Which obviously makes sense.
me: argh, SO true
Kestrel: But in the end
me: but i HATE it
it's like, can't we just turn it OFF??
Kestrel: this means you're treated as a WOMAN
not a HUMAN.
me: yes!
Kestrel: And when men
don't feel like being sexual beings
they CAN turn that off
for themselves
and they become just PEOPLE.
me: wow
you're right
oh my god
Kestrel: Pretty much genderless people.
me: i'm so jealous now
of them
wow
wow
Kestrel: So everyone can relate to them.
me: i hate that so much
Kestrel: Someone like Bob Dylan?
me: i'm so mad right now
YES
Kestrel: He's pretty androgynous.
me: OH MY GOD
OH MY GOD
YOU'RE A GENIUS
Kestrel: They're like a paper doll.
You can stick on any clothes you want.
me: wow
you're blowing my mind right now
Kestrel: The Beatles.
They're just blank slates.
Everyman.
me: yes!
god
Kestrel: But why?
Why is that?
That's what I want to know.
Maybe it comes down to women simply not being as sex-driven.
Maybe if we were,
men would be more objectified.
me: hmm
i bet so
the problem
seems to me
that most men
see women as "mysterious"
and "powerful"
and almost magical
Kestrel: Right.
me: and therefore they get scared
and then start the macho sexist thing
Kestrel: On a pedestal.
me: exactly
Kestrel: Yeah
me: i just wish we could somehow convince them
Kestrel: Basically they project and overreact.
me: but i guess the fact is
that women do have certain things
that men will never have
like the mother instinct, and the high tolerance for pain
stuff like that
and, like you said, a lower sex drive
which automatically puts us in control
of the situation
Kestrel: And yet we're not.
Because we're terrified to be rejected by men (read: society)
me: i know! because we're just as emotional and messed-up
and HUMAN as anybody
yes
Kestrel: But man...this stuff is BASIC.
This is ANIMAL INSTINCT.
Well....
me: wow
Kestrel: time for sleepies....
me: yeah
time for homework
Kestrel: That was great.
I love you.
me: i love you!
thanks for saying i'm not an intellectual
Kestrel: Good luck wid your homework.
me: that made me feel a lot better
Kestrel: No problem.
I'll say it any time.
me: thanks, i'll need it, ha
Kestrel: I think what it comes down to is
screw labels
we don't need 'em
you're you
i'm me
me: yes
yes
yes
Kestrel: everybody wants to be free
Kestrel: You know, today I watched a documentary called A Class Divided which reminded me of what you said about The Angry Eye. It was the same experiment, except this AMAZING teacher did it in a 3rd-grade classroom in the early 70s. It was very effective.
me: ooo, what was the experiment based on? eye color, the same thing?
Kestrel: Yes.
me: wow
Kestrel: And the minority eye color
had to wear black collars, too.
10:53 PM me: oh my god
intense
Kestrel: And within 15 minutes, she had the kids discriminating against their friends.
And she asked them the most AMAZING questions.
Brilliant, quick, intense, fascinating, thought-provoking questions.
me: wow, i would love to be part of that experiment
just to discover
how i would react!
Kestrel: Yes. I mean, I'm a little scared.
But yes.
me: because of course you always think
"i would never do that!"
Kestrel: We'd be on opposite sides!!
me: oh god!
Kestrel: Mwa-ha-ha-ha-ha-haaa....
me: you're right!
haha
i just really wish
i could genuinely experience
the minority thing
Kestrel: yes.
me: i mean, sure i'm a woman
and i've definitely experienced the bad side of that
but i feel like
race is very different
Kestrel: The instant judgement.
yeah
I feel like with women
it's much more subtle
much more deeply embedded
in very primal instincts.
I think racism is a lot more about cognition.
In the frontal cortex
or whatever it's called.
me: true - you know something really weird?
Kestrel: I mean, a lot of it is instinctive too
yeah what?
me: i've probably already talked about this
but in this whole presidential race
it's been totally acceptable for people to say terrible sexist things about clinton and palin
but no one was allowed to breathe a word
Kestrel: Exactly. I think it will be a VERY long time before we have a female president.
sorry
me: a NEGATIVE word
about race
Kestrel: I interrupted.
yes.
me: no, that's fine :)
you read my mind!
Kestrel: Yes.
i think few people really get
how unconscious sexism is.
It's like it's part of the foundation
and the slightest questioning of the foundation
makes it all shake badly
and it's scary.
me: it's like, "oh, we've gone through the sensitive-to-women's-issues phase"
"now we can discriminate again"
Kestrel: right, because being a feminist has a bad connotation now
due to a lot of women
who didn't think
but just blathered.
god damn it.
me: funny thing
just today in german class
we were talking about racism and sexism
because the three fairy tales we read for today
portrayed jews in this disgusting way
pretty much like horrid little rodents
Kestrel: MAUS
me: and had cliched lines like
"The Jew was happy about the little profit he had made."
(oh my god you're right)
(about maus)
(totally)
and the strange thing is
that no one was as offended by the jew thing as me
Kestrel: yay PVPA!
uber-sensitivity forever!
me: (yah, i know! those memories...)
me: and no one really got offended by the gender thing
except kempf!
Kestrel: Ah...
he was like
"They're treating the woman as a commodity!"
"This is shocking!"
and we girls were like
"Whatever. That's old news."
Kestrel: Right, because it's cool.
To not get offended.
me: "We're used to it, believe us."
Kestrel: Because if you get offended, guys won't like you.
me: exactly!
you're so right!
wow
Kestrel: Yep.
It sucks.
me: that's crazy
Kestrel: Nobody likes a feminist.
me: i never thought of it like that, but you're totally right
Kestrel: You know what I think sexism really is nowadays?
me: what?
Kestrel: In its more subtle forms?
I think it's just that in a woman's life
in every interaction
men are continually much more conscious of her sexuality
(not orientation)
me: right
Kestrel: (just general sexuality)
me: yeah
Kestrel: then when dealing with men.
Which obviously makes sense.
me: argh, SO true
Kestrel: But in the end
me: but i HATE it
it's like, can't we just turn it OFF??
Kestrel: this means you're treated as a WOMAN
not a HUMAN.
me: yes!
Kestrel: And when men
don't feel like being sexual beings
they CAN turn that off
for themselves
and they become just PEOPLE.
me: wow
you're right
oh my god
Kestrel: Pretty much genderless people.
me: i'm so jealous now
of them
wow
wow
Kestrel: So everyone can relate to them.
me: i hate that so much
Kestrel: Someone like Bob Dylan?
me: i'm so mad right now
YES
Kestrel: He's pretty androgynous.
me: OH MY GOD
OH MY GOD
YOU'RE A GENIUS
Kestrel: They're like a paper doll.
You can stick on any clothes you want.
me: wow
you're blowing my mind right now
Kestrel: The Beatles.
They're just blank slates.
Everyman.
me: yes!
god
Kestrel: But why?
Why is that?
That's what I want to know.
Maybe it comes down to women simply not being as sex-driven.
Maybe if we were,
men would be more objectified.
me: hmm
i bet so
the problem
seems to me
that most men
see women as "mysterious"
and "powerful"
and almost magical
Kestrel: Right.
me: and therefore they get scared
and then start the macho sexist thing
Kestrel: On a pedestal.
me: exactly
Kestrel: Yeah
me: i just wish we could somehow convince them
Kestrel: Basically they project and overreact.
me: but i guess the fact is
that women do have certain things
that men will never have
like the mother instinct, and the high tolerance for pain
stuff like that
and, like you said, a lower sex drive
which automatically puts us in control
of the situation
Kestrel: And yet we're not.
Because we're terrified to be rejected by men (read: society)
me: i know! because we're just as emotional and messed-up
and HUMAN as anybody
yes
Kestrel: But man...this stuff is BASIC.
This is ANIMAL INSTINCT.
Well....
me: wow
Kestrel: time for sleepies....
me: yeah
time for homework
Kestrel: That was great.
I love you.
me: i love you!
thanks for saying i'm not an intellectual
Kestrel: Good luck wid your homework.
me: that made me feel a lot better
Kestrel: No problem.
I'll say it any time.
me: thanks, i'll need it, ha
Kestrel: I think what it comes down to is
screw labels
we don't need 'em
you're you
i'm me
me: yes
yes
yes
Kestrel: everybody wants to be free