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[shahar]

I think etiquette is a lost art. I am not talking about stuffiness, but general etiquette. Maybe my idea of etiquette is skewed as I have been exposed to taroff.

Comments

[sucsays]

Taroff reminds me a great deal of Chinese etiquette and the paradoxes are the same. With the Chinese, I attribute the paradoxes to a distinction between people one knows in a private and personal way and the random hordes everywhere else. When I first went to college, which was the first time in my life I was constantly around masses of non-Asians, I was a little taken aback by what I felt to be a certain general brusqueness. Over time, I have grown to see that it's really more an honesty and straightforwardness (aren't we all ultimately self-centered?) and have shed some of my Chinese manners in response. But, of course, it never hurts to be polite.

[shahar]

I don't want people to taroff, but I think that the gneral person (at least in NYC) thinks of themself. What is wrong with Thank you, Excuse me, etc?
I like being straightforward. I wish I was better at it though, because I tend to hurt people's feelings when I am being straightforward.

OR

I can move to England. The only Western country I know of that prides itself on subtlety.

[your_m0m]

I agree with your assessment about subtlety being at the root of all this. I had an etiquette teacher in middle school (she was about 190 years old, 3 feet tall, supposed to be teaching English, from Savannah) and grew up with a very "nice people do such and such" attitude that seems like a throwback to Victorian times compared to everyone else's outlooks/actions

[shahar]

I think pop up wedding invitations would be the classiest

;)

[jadeintheforest]

etiquette is BS. so much of the time, especially in US-Southern culture, it is just covering up for all of the hateful things people think but are too afraid to say. i'd rather someone be brutally honest than to sugar-coat things or put up a polite front that isn't genuine.

[shahar]

I think etiquette and honesty are not mutually exclusive. If someone does something that you appreciate or is nice, is it dishnonest to say 'thank you'? I am also a fan of saying excuse me before pushing someone out of the way, saying please if you are making a request to someone that is out of the ordinary, etc. Everyone has brought up honesty in this thread, but no one is honest to everyone.

I don't give my friends honest opinions about things, if I know that it can be taken negatively, unless directly asked. There are others, but I can't think of them right now. I feel like my life is a mixture between the two.

[jadeintheforest]

I don't think it is dishonest to say thank you, but let me give you a counter-example of what I mean:

Someone does something for you that they think is nice, but you don't. Are you required to say thank you, even if you have absolutely no appreciate for what they've done? I say you aren't.

No one is honest 100% of the time, but I think you can be honest most of the time. I DO give anyone & everyone my honest opinion, including friends, family, etc, even if they don't like it, even if they hate it, in fact.

[jadeintheforest]

the only time I can think that I avoid being honest is if I know it will lead to violence or direct action against me (I certainly wouldn't go across the street and discuss my pro-choice beliefs with the abortion protestors outside, but I do give my extremely-Christian & pro-life doctor my opinion about it).