I do not think the % of idiots among the Orthodox Jews is any higher or lower than in the general population. Their knowledge is different from yours but their command of this knowledge is as good as yours of your knowledge. If we start calling each other idiots for no other reason than not knowing something, where is this going to lead?
Do not take it wrong, but I think you might be prejudiced. You are rationalizing this prejudice finding "reasons" to despise people that do you no harm; this is never too hard. There are worse things in life than not being taught computer literacy. You have being going around asking about Absolute Morality. If anything is absolute in morality, this is. Love thy neighbor. The rabbis that on purpose moved Sanhedrin out of the Temple so that they cannot pass death sentences understood it.
Have you thought of this example yourself? I am asking because it is one of the favorite theses of Noam Chomsky: that all the talk of "stupid" working classes in the US is sheer nonsense because you should only listen to the same people talking sports.
I agree with Chomsky on this one. To this I add of my own: they master one of the most complicated systems of deductive knowledge ever erected. This system informed and pollinated many other such systems, including the very science that is taught to your hypothetical well-rounded educated man. There are probably more to come. So it is in your own best interests to have such people around.
Well, if you are not just saying that for the sake of the argument and really do hold them in high esteem as knowledgeable people, then I'll concede that you are being consistent
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I've done stupider things than that, so who am I to criticize our poor. I just can afford stupidity and they can't.
As for the best interest, I really meant it. You guys show the generosity of spirit and the level of tolerance that suggests me that you absolutely need Ultra-Orthodox Jews around, as many as possible, of the most obstinate, unyielding, narrow-minded and self-righteous kind.
There is a difference between individual people making individual mistakes (who hasn't made any?) and a whole class of people habitually making the same mistake, the one, as you pointed out, they can least afford.
You guys show the generosity of spirit and the level of tolerance that suggests me that you absolutely need Ultra-Orthodox Jews around, as many as possible, of the most obstinate, unyielding, narrow-minded and self-righteous kind.
I am not sure what you are trying to say here. First of all, it's not clear, who are "you guys". Apparently, I've been lumped with some other people, but I don't know who they are. Also, you seem to imply that having "as many as possible" of Ultra-Orthodox Jews would contribute to "generosity of spirit and the level of tolerance". Since they, in my observation, are very poor examples of either, it looks like you are suggesting that their obstinacy and narrow-mindness would teach people around them to be tolerant of themUsually, though, it doesn't work like that: intolerance breeds intolerance,
( ... )
I meant the people that do not like looking into a mirror. The more mirrors are around, the more difficult this feat becomes. Please, do not scare me with the Orthodox Jews. You are short of sounding like a medieval bishop. Not only the unproductive Orthodox Jews are ignorant, stupid, suck the blood of good citizens, and devastate the land, they also menstruate into municipal water supply. You know better than that.
But these are classic arguments and the very same rationale (necessary evil needs be occasionally tolerated in the interest of the brethren)! You just add some statistics and economics to it, so it looks more plausible (medieval bishops considered that unnecessary). Ok, I was too hard on you. You sound like an enlightened medieval bishop. The rabbis should be shaved, converted, put into freshly pressed uniforms, and educated in bioengineering and cubism. Then it will be happiness everywhere. We've been through that, too.
Why do you keep ascribing to me something I haven't said? So far I just stated the facts and I haven't said anything about what should be done about them. As far as what should be done (and I am just saying that now) is that their activities should be financed through donations only, not by the taxpayers. Other than that: live and let live. The secular should not impose any restrictions on them, they should not impose any restrictions on the secular (and the latter happens a lot in Israel).
What should be done about it seems to be in accord with the presentation of the facts. All well. If you change "live" to "love" it would even make some sense. Best in 2010!
I hope this didn't imply that I misrepresented the facts. Also, in my view, the one with "live" comes before the one with the "love" (the former is must-have, the latter is nice-to-have). As to the last sentiment, I fully share it :)
Consider a college educated person with a good grasp of sciences and arts versus a person, whose general knowledge is at best at elementary school level, but on top of that he is extremely well-versed in everything related to football: scores and compositions of teams, biographies of players as well as recent gossip on them, how many times each one scored and at which minute of the game, etc. Would you appreciate both as knowledgeable people, it's just that their areas of knowledge are different?
Israeli Haredi schoolchildren are not taught mathematics, English and computer literacy.
In the link you provided is said that on 4.7.07 Knesset approved a law which extended state support for the schools that do not include said classes in their curriculum on high-school level. While this may be regrettable (and part of generally regrettable system of tax-supported schools) it does not exactly say that no Haredi schools teach no math at all.
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Do not take it wrong, but I think you might be prejudiced. You are rationalizing this prejudice finding "reasons" to despise people that do you no harm; this is never too hard. There are worse things in life than not being taught computer literacy. You have being going around asking about Absolute Morality. If anything is absolute in morality, this is. Love thy neighbor. The rabbis that on purpose moved Sanhedrin out of the Temple so that they cannot pass death sentences understood it.
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I agree with Chomsky on this one. To this I add of my own: they master one of the most complicated systems of deductive knowledge ever erected. This system informed and pollinated many other such systems, including the very science that is taught to your hypothetical well-rounded educated man. There are probably more to come. So it is in your own best interests to have such people around.
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As for the best interest, I really meant it. You guys show the generosity of spirit and the level of tolerance that suggests me that you absolutely need Ultra-Orthodox Jews around, as many as possible, of the most obstinate, unyielding, narrow-minded and self-righteous kind.
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You guys show the generosity of spirit and the level of tolerance that suggests me that you absolutely need Ultra-Orthodox Jews around, as many as possible, of the most obstinate, unyielding, narrow-minded and self-righteous kind.
I am not sure what you are trying to say here.
First of all, it's not clear, who are "you guys". Apparently, I've been lumped with some other people, but I don't know who they are.
Also, you seem to imply that having "as many as possible" of Ultra-Orthodox Jews would contribute to "generosity of spirit and the level of tolerance". Since they, in my observation, are very poor examples of either, it looks like you are suggesting that their obstinacy and narrow-mindness would teach people around them to be tolerant of themUsually, though, it doesn't work like that: intolerance breeds intolerance, ( ... )
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So far I just stated the facts and I haven't said anything about what should be done about them.
As far as what should be done (and I am just saying that now) is that their activities should be financed through donations only, not by the taxpayers.
Other than that: live and let live. The secular should not impose any restrictions on them, they should not impose any restrictions on the secular (and the latter happens a lot in Israel).
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Also, in my view, the one with "live" comes before the one with the "love" (the former is must-have, the latter is nice-to-have).
As to the last sentiment, I fully share it :)
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Does it feel that uncomfortable to you? :-))
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Would you appreciate both as knowledgeable people, it's just that their areas of knowledge are different?
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In the link you provided is said that on 4.7.07 Knesset approved a law which extended state support for the schools that do not include said classes in their curriculum on high-school level. While this may be regrettable (and part of generally regrettable system of tax-supported schools) it does not exactly say that no Haredi schools teach no math at all.
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