Not does God exist, but can it be reasonable to believe in Him?

[shoei_mike]

To start with, there was this, which topic drifted into discussion on faith. Having said I used to be atheist and am now Christian, a friend from back in the atheist days, who has made the opposite conversion said "Christian -> atheist I can understand. The other direction baffles me.". So I promised to say something about it on my LJ tonight

Comments

[badasstronaut]

I think to have a willingness to believe in, and submit to, an entity I'd have to have some sense of what that entity is. I have no sense of that, so it seems irrelevant. I suppose someone could argue that I should go looking for whatever it is to learn about the entity, but there's no essential starting point. I might as well go looking for any number of things that might want something from me I have no sense of or motivation to find.

I think I can follow your thread there. Presumably you must begin with some motivation to find a god, and in your experience your efforts have been rewarded by faith - or is it less simple than that?

[shoei_mike]

Something like that. Having worked out that If God of the form I was considering existed, then He would be the ultimate good, and inescapable. Before believing, I knew if there was a God of the Christian kind, there'd be no point fighting against him. Part of the process was realising that completely aside from any other arguments, I didn't want there to be a God of the Christian kind.

Of course I worked out that I knew nothing about the business of running a universe while balancing man's free will with possibility of his salvation. i.e. I realised that if there were a God, it'd be a case of His way being the best way. So my resistance was based on my atheistic view of what would be best for the material-only, soulless world.

I think the examination of what I'd have to do if there were a God was helpful first in realising my own resistance to the idea, and second in accepting faith and the burden of duty that would come with it.

Since muerk was going through the RCIA (becoming a Roman Catholic course) at the time, through

[kai_loi]

This argument basically boils down to. "I have faith because I can see that by gaining faith God was calling me to be faithful. Therefore there is a god

[shoei_mike]

It would be a circular argument... if it were an argument. It was a reflection on my journey. You seem to fail to realise that I'm looking at it from both sides. If anything, my desire was that there not be a God. Having held atheism into adulthood, I had no desire to hand over my moral judgements and life choices (and I still don't get to do that as a Christian). I was at ease with myself, my ultimate

Let me throw out here a disclaimer : as a former athiest, I understand the atheistic viewpoint and would probably have responded as you have. I don't expect there is a rational argument one can give to an atheist to convert them. It's possible that if someone's "near the cusp" between Christian and non-Christian worldviews that this discussion may help. It's also possible that this discussion may help anyone interested in knowing more about shoei_mike. I DO NOT BELIEVE ITS POSSIBLE TO BRING ABOUT A CONVERSION WITH THE FLAMING SWORD OF LOGIC

[hungrymama]

There are at least a couple of problems with Pascals wager. One is, like you said, any God worth worshiping should be able to figure out when you're putting him/her on. The other problem is that it assumes a simple choice between God and Not God which all falls apart in the presence of multiple religions or even denominations - if you pick Christ and it turns out Krishna is the man then you may be doubly screwed.

Every adult convert I have talked to seems to have had an experience that brought them to faith. A time when God revealed himself or a moment of clarity or some kind of sign. That's where I suspect something in the way some people's brains are wired that allows them to have these kinds of experiences fairly readily while others do not.

[muerk]

I didn't have a moment of clarity per se, however I have had them since. What's most interesting is in my conversation with the enclosed contemplative nuns at the Carmeltie monastery is that I can see God's presence in my life by looking back at how things have changed.

I have experienced God but there is _no_ way that via conversations I could ever convince atheists that it was so. It really has been an interesting shift in worldview and if I had done it earlier (ie, before marrying Shoei) I would likely be an enclosed nun by now.

[kai_loi]

The thing is you could have attributed that "feeling of calrity" and change in your life to anything. Hormones, serotonin, hange in diet, additional/less sleep, giving birth and the associated hormonal changes.

As for "seeing gods presence" Couldn't that be equally attributed to any invisible non-detectable agency. "I have had my life changed by Buddha, or Islam, or wicca, or crystal chakra alignment".

Why attribute it to one of a million other possible imaginary causes.

Humans are really good at detecting patterns. If you look in your life you'll always find a pattern if you want to. That doesn't make it an actual pattern, just a perceived one.

[muerk]

Spiritual discernment is a big issue and I have to say that you are right when it comes to questioning these matters.

As part of being involved with the Discalced Carmelite Order we have priests who we can discuss these very issues with (minus other religious contexts since it's a given as we are Catholics). One of the thing that we are taught to look for is long term changes in ourselves, such as perseverance in prayer or regular reconciliation. It's acknowledged that feelings are transitory and often bad indicators of long term spiritual growth, our actions are far better at showing us what we really are.

[kai_loi]

You state you dismantled the erroneous notions about the church and god. BUt my reply to you is... which church, which god? Why catholic. Why not Protestant? Baptist? Or any of the other Christian sects that exist in the world today? And if you were able to "pick and choose" the bits you liked. Haven't you really just formed your own personal religion?

Ok.. so we have you believing in god. And Jesus... out of the multitude of other gods that exist. So I'll ask you the same questions I asked yesterday.

1. Do you believe the story of Adam and Even in the Bible is an actual historical event?

[shoei_mike]

The reasons I considered God in the Roman Catholic sense came up in the other replies. Why I stay RC is because I see them as continously revising doctrine with respect to progress while sticking with the difficult truths. If a church is really presenting the truth, it will have to stand at times against the culture that emerges from a fallen world, even when such stands prevent them from being bigger or more infulential. They should concern themselves first with the truth. If I thought another church had more of the truth, I'd convert.

I believe the story of Adam and Eve in the Bible is not a direct linear recording of an actual event. I believe that the author(s) were divinely inspired to reveal facts about humanity's creation, relationship to God, etc.

[kai_loi]

Mkay. so we have established one thing.

Ok. question 2. Do you believe that Jesus dying on the cross for the sins of mankind was an actual event that historically occurred?

[shoei_mike]

Yes.