"But unlike Sweeney, she doesn't turn her suffering on everyone else; she is still so good that even in her arsenic-addled, forced-prostitution state she tries to help people."
This is fantastic essay, especially this bit. Even if Lucy is a mostly passive figure (though she is as pro-active as possible re: warning people about the pies and such), she's the only character who hasn't compromised their morality by the end (Benjamin, stage!Johanna shooting Fogg - and I think movie!Johanna would've done the same if the situation arose, Anthony leaving Fogg to be torn limb from limb, Toby taking the torch razor, etc), so I'd say she is a strong character in that sense.
Her warnings aren't very effective, poor Lucy! She does try, but there is always a check on her accomplishing anything. The one time she isn't ignored, she gets killed instead.
she's the only character who hasn't compromised their morality by the end
That is an excellent point. She is arguably the strongest character in that respect.
I think she knows them for who they are in the present moment of the story.
That was my thought, too, I just can't come to a definite conclusion...
Would she call him great if she remembered what he did to her and her husband and how he ruined her life?
That reminded me that Sweeney used exactly that word when the Judge came to his shop the first time. "Who in this wide world does not know the great Judge Turpin?" I'm not sure whether that means anything, as Sweeney was being smarmy and ironic, but it's a nice parallel between him and Lucy. :-)
She certainly has hung on to her morality, unlike just about everyone else, which shows just what a lovely person she is, and that she is much stronger than she is usually given credit for.
Hi,I came here from community too.You did a great job and though Lucy isn't my favourite character,as I really don't like that kind of passive women and besides I love Sweeney/Lovett pair I have to admit that Lucy did nothing that could give us a reason to dislike her.There is only one thing-she would never accept and love the new Benjamin,I mean Sweney himself,while Mrs.Lovett was able to do that and she really loved him.And I strongly disagree that she loved him more than Lovett. Thank you for this great job:D
Hi. :-) I'd say that Mrs Lovett being so accepting of Sweeney the serial killer points to her craziness rather than to true love! She does love him, but not in a healthy way.
I strongly disagree that she loved him more than Lovett.
The key words for me were 'more selflessly' - Lucy has nothing to gain by being remaining faithful to her husband after his transportation, as she seems to be completely alone and without anyone to help her with money, and Judge Turpin could have kept her very comfortably; but she does stay faithful. (And that she later took poison shows that she was absolutely in despair without Benjamin, doesn't it?) Whereas Mrs Lovett does profit by her association with Sweeney.
Well,I could ask you if love isn't a great graziness itself,but I won't:D. Finally,there is also a question of honour and not only love in Benjamin-Lucy-Turpin case.If even Mrs.Lovett knew about the situation then I'd suppose that there were others who knew and Lucy might have been afraid of losing her respect too,[i]in addition[/i] to her love for Benjamin of course,cause I can't deny that she loved him and they werea very good family.
Well, yes, it would have been everything that happened to her and her family that led to her suicide attempt - the loss of Benjamin, the trauma of being raped, and true, her society would have seen her as a 'fallen woman' with a transported convict for a husband ... poor thing. :-)
I've been browsing some Sweeney Todd comms, considering whether to join the fandom, and I was very intrigued by your essay. I think it is very thoughtful and hope you don't mind a complete stranger commenting on it.
Beautiful, virtuous and passive, Lucy is the ideal Victorian woman. That is a fantastic point. I don't know anything about this fandom, but if Lucy is ignored or hated and Mrs. Lovett is liked I'd bet on our modern perspective as the reason. I think there's an interesting contrast between how the characters perceive Lucy and Mrs. Lovett and how the audience sees them. In the movie Lucy is perfect and Mrs. Lovett is remarkable only for her corruption. From the audience's perspective Lucy might be seen as boring, and Mrs. Lovett as crafty, funny and no less beautiful than Lucy.
Lucy loved just as faithfully and far more selflessly than Mrs Lovett did. I actually think Mrs. Lovett's love for Todd is the only selfless motive/feeling she has (she doesn't sell his razors, agrees to help him get revenge against
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I don't mind new people commenting at all! I don't know everyone upthread... Sorry it took me so long to reply.
I think there's an interesting contrast between how the characters perceive Lucy and Mrs. Lovett and how the audience sees them.
Agreed - it's the same with Sweeney. He and Mrs Lovett are the only two involved with mass murder, they are the most ruthless characters in the cast, yet they're the most interesting ones, and arguably the most sympathetic, as we get a more intimate glimpse at their feelings than at anyone else's. Plus they're the prettiest. :-) (Not possible to be more beautiful than Helena Bonham Carter in my book!) That seems to have led to the good qualities of the virtuous characters being overlooked. They're even cast as the villains, especially Lucy and Anthony.
I actually think Mrs. Lovett's love for Todd is the only selfless motive/feeling she hasI wrote this in response to the perception that Lucy did not love Benjamin enough, or as much as Mrs Lovett did, so I was concentrating on the positive
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This is fantastic essay, especially this bit. Even if Lucy is a mostly passive figure (though she is as pro-active as possible re: warning people about the pies and such), she's the only character who hasn't compromised their morality by the end (Benjamin, stage!Johanna shooting Fogg - and I think movie!Johanna would've done the same if the situation arose, Anthony leaving Fogg to be torn limb from limb, Toby taking the torch razor, etc), so I'd say she is a strong character in that sense.
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Her warnings aren't very effective, poor Lucy! She does try, but there is always a check on her accomplishing anything. The one time she isn't ignored, she gets killed instead.
she's the only character who hasn't compromised their morality by the end
That is an excellent point. She is arguably the strongest character in that respect.
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(The comment has been removed)
I think she knows them for who they are in the present moment of the story.
That was my thought, too, I just can't come to a definite conclusion...
Would she call him great if she remembered what he did to her and her husband and how he ruined her life?
That reminded me that Sweeney used exactly that word when the Judge came to his shop the first time. "Who in this wide world does not know the great Judge Turpin?" I'm not sure whether that means anything, as Sweeney was being smarmy and ironic, but it's a nice parallel between him and Lucy. :-)
She certainly has hung on to her morality, unlike just about everyone else, which shows just what a lovely person she is, and that she is much stronger than she is usually given credit for.
Thanks!
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Thank you for this great job:D
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I strongly disagree that she loved him more than Lovett.
The key words for me were 'more selflessly' - Lucy has nothing to gain by being remaining faithful to her husband after his transportation, as she seems to be completely alone and without anyone to help her with money, and Judge Turpin could have kept her very comfortably; but she does stay faithful. (And that she later took poison shows that she was absolutely in despair without Benjamin, doesn't it?) Whereas Mrs Lovett does profit by her association with Sweeney.
Thank you for commenting! :-)
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Finally,there is also a question of honour and not only love in Benjamin-Lucy-Turpin case.If even Mrs.Lovett knew about the situation then I'd suppose that there were others who knew and Lucy might have been afraid of losing her respect too,[i]in addition[/i] to her love for Benjamin of course,cause I can't deny that she loved him and they werea very good family.
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(The comment has been removed)
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I've been browsing some Sweeney Todd comms, considering whether to join the fandom, and I was very intrigued by your essay. I think it is very thoughtful and hope you don't mind a complete stranger commenting on it.
Beautiful, virtuous and passive, Lucy is the ideal Victorian woman. That is a fantastic point. I don't know anything about this fandom, but if Lucy is ignored or hated and Mrs. Lovett is liked I'd bet on our modern perspective as the reason. I think there's an interesting contrast between how the characters perceive Lucy and Mrs. Lovett and how the audience sees them. In the movie Lucy is perfect and Mrs. Lovett is remarkable only for her corruption. From the audience's perspective Lucy might be seen as boring, and Mrs. Lovett as crafty, funny and no less beautiful than Lucy.
Lucy loved just as faithfully and far more selflessly than Mrs Lovett did. I actually think Mrs. Lovett's love for Todd is the only selfless motive/feeling she has (she doesn't sell his razors, agrees to help him get revenge against ( ... )
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I think there's an interesting contrast between how the characters perceive Lucy and Mrs. Lovett and how the audience sees them.
Agreed - it's the same with Sweeney. He and Mrs Lovett are the only two involved with mass murder, they are the most ruthless characters in the cast, yet they're the most interesting ones, and arguably the most sympathetic, as we get a more intimate glimpse at their feelings than at anyone else's. Plus they're the prettiest. :-) (Not possible to be more beautiful than Helena Bonham Carter in my book!) That seems to have led to the good qualities of the virtuous characters being overlooked. They're even cast as the villains, especially Lucy and Anthony.
I actually think Mrs. Lovett's love for Todd is the only selfless motive/feeling she hasI wrote this in response to the perception that Lucy did not love Benjamin enough, or as much as Mrs Lovett did, so I was concentrating on the positive ( ... )
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