and can I just add...

[snailprincess]

I think principles should be able to fire teachers whenever the fuck they feel like it. My boss can fire me whenever the hell he wants. Yes he would need to avoid the appearance of racism, sexism or discrimination against any other protected class, but since I'm a young white male with near (obvious) disabilities, he'd probably be in the clear

Comments

[tdw]

There was also a long piece in This American Life a few months back about Rubber Rooms. Might have been from the same source. Possibly one of the most memorable episodes of TAL for me (and that says something.)

devils advocate

[anonymous]

I imagine some Europeans would ask why you don't demand more protections like the teacher instead of saying the teacher should lose theirs. If some workers demand better pay and treatment, it makes it that much harder to push down other workers. Tenure seems to me to just be another negotiated part of compensation.

Ben Z

[paperclippy]

Disclaimer: I only read the beginning of that article

[jeffspender]

Err, how is this substantially different from a business? Sorry in advance for employing what is generally an annoying and sometimes rhetorical device, but this seemed illustrative

[pmb]

Until we start paying teachers actual money, then we either need to give them good benefits, or the majority of teachers will be people who were too incompetent to do anything else, sprinkled with a handful of kooky idealists. Any call to revoke tenure needs to be accompanied by an attendant call to raise salaries. Right now, teaching requires a master's degree and pays horribly. Stability is currently the only reason an intelligent person would want to be a teacher

[snailprincess]

I think the 'teaching is difficult to measure' is a bit of a red herring. Performance in most jobs is difficult to measure and vulnerable to bias. Again, all of use deal with such issue's in our jobs and aren't protected to the ridiculous degree that teachers are

[pmb]

I agree with everything you said to at least some degree. The only big exception is the line "you argument that 'we don't pay teachers enough to get good ones so they need tenure as a benefit' seems to be saying 'well, we don't pay enough to get good teachers, but at least they say forever.'", which I think is a mischaracterization of what I said

[snailprincess]

To labor flexibility, my point was not the flexibility would solve the problem, but assuming there is a problem then increased flexibility would expose the problem and allow us to deal with it. I don't believe the lure of tenure is necessarily drawing in qualified applicants. I could be wrong, but I think those for whom tenure is a large attractor may not necessarily be the kind we want.

But more to the point I think tenure and the difficult of getting rid of bad teachers is definitely bad for students overall, which is the real issue