In Defence Of Season 5

[so_bambiesque]

Yeah, I'm doing a thing right now. I intended to come on and basically freak out about the Brothers and Sisters finale, but in my world, this takes precedence. I was flisting and flisting my flist's flists (lol, yes stalker) and I saw at least 4 posts and comments in which people diss season 5. And I am so sick and tired of it. Apart from a couple

Comments

[raedbard]

See, now I'm really wondering if I've been having Bad Feelings towards S5 at entirely too high a level. (My issues are completely to do with characterisation of Toby, which for my money shades into poor for most of the final three seasons but you don't need to know all that!)

A lot of the arcs (Gaza, the showdown at the Capitol) are pretty awesome and though it depresses me a lot 'Slow News Day' is heartbreaking, ballsy and brilliant, you're so right. And YAY love for 'No Exit', totally one of my guilty pleasures episodes. (And yeah, Toby/Will. *nods* ;)) And 'Supremes' - there is no bad there, 'tis true. And 'Han' breaks me into little pieces. Plus, S5 is where you first see the twins. Properly. *dies* Ahem.

I think, thank god someone else has said it, that you're absolutely right about the good parts of 5 being better than 7, but then I do hate 7 an awful lot, so not objective there!

There are plenty of moments when season 5 does what The West Wing does, and it inspires you and makes you think, as well as making you laugh, and

[so_bambiesque]

Perhaps the early seasons are so packed full of those moments for some of us that we tend to be more derisive of the seasons where they don't seem to come up so often.
I think that's exactly the problem. The first four seasons were just so incredible, that nothing was ever going to match up, no matter how good they were. I think that every season has those episodes that you forget about and miss out when watching, but they also have those really stunning ones, and season 5 is no different.

The thing about characterisation is that, like I said, they couldn't possibly be the same people that they were in season 1. Too much happened. And people do develop and change over time. Maybe I'm biased, because I seem to be the only person who's pleased with what happened to their favourite character (Donna) and I can't help but wonder that if Sorkin had stayed on, she wouldn't have stepped out on her own.

But I am very very glad that I successfully changed opened your mind :) GO WATCH IT NOW ;)

[raedbard]

The thing about characterisation is that, like I said, they couldn't possibly be the same people that they were in season 1. Too much happened.Yeeeeesss. To an extent. And, maybe I'll feel differently after I re-watch (which I will totally be doing very soon!) but my feeling re. Toby is that no-one had a proper handle on the character or where he was going. From the moment Will leaves to be with Bingo Bob, Toby arc turns into a downslide. Which, obviously, I'm not okay with and I think is based on a misreading of prior characterisation. But on the other hand, you're totally right: it's not like other characters have solely OMG happy times and they do change and mature and become different people, as they totally should. But I feel like the writers had a better idea of what to do with some characters than others. I think Toby lost a few of the layers he has in the earlier seasons and I couldn't hate his send-off more. Which colours my perceptions, OBviously! But anyway, sorry! *shutsup

[so_bambiesque]

Toby is that no-one had a proper handle on the character or where he was going.
I completely understand that, and I appreciate that you know a lot more than I do when it comes to Toby! He's a really hard character to read, and I think, clearly to write for, so I can see why they had some problems getting to grips with him, as it were. And your point about "losing some of his layers"... that's exactly it.

WOOT! *Claims victory*

[dawn_walking]

The Benign Prerogative is an brilliant episode. I'm bias as well but Janel is really stunning in this episode. When she tell CJ. what happened with that boy - that scene is always makes me cry.

No exit is great too. I love the Toby/Will fight and Josh/Kate are hilarious. And I love Donna with the fishing-rod. haha

It's weird but I love Gaza. It hurts my heart but the episode is amazing. The Middle East problem is interesting and this episode makes me want to more about that topic.

[so_bambiesque]

God, me too. And the scene when she tells Bartlet what his mother said... kills me every time.

Oh, Gaza. It hurts me to watch it and I still flinch (read: look away) when the car flips over. And yet, I go back and watch that arc again and again and again. I have a bad day, and out comes Gaza. I'm such a masochist.

[dawn_walking]

Uhh I'm a masochist as well.

[medland]

I freaking LOVE season five. STFU haters, I have so so much love for it. Thank you for reminding me why.

The grandkid is Gus btw. ♥

[so_bambiesque]

WOO-HOOOO!!!

THANK YOU! In my head I had Declan for some reason :|

[mcgarrygirl78]

I love this. And you're right, there are bits of brilliant in every episode. It is the West Wing after all and the beauty of it is it was cast with some of the finest people to ever step in front of a TV camera.

Still, as a whole IMHO it is the least likable season but I can totally appreciate the time you took to break it all down. I enjoyed reading this and agreed with a good deal of it, even if I dont feel the need to ever really rewatch this season minus a few select eps (Full Disclosure, The Benign Perogative, The Supremes, Constituency of One, Shutdown, An Khe, No Exit).....oh hell am I naming like every episode? Damn West Wing, its hard to really hate it, even Season 5. Though I can say I was not impressed with the first couple of eps with Walken as President and the whole Zoey kidnap thing.

[so_bambiesque]

That's so it. With this cast, how could it ever be bad?

I appreciate that it's your least favourite season, I think that everyone's is either 5,6, or 7. The truth is, I have a hard time doing any ranking. I always change my mind as I watch, and really, a lot of my faves are in season 7 (for obvious shipping reasons) so there's every chance that two days from now I'll change my mind again! I have to admit that the kidnapping resolution sucked, there's no getting around that.

[mcgarrygirl78]

I think everyone just missed the way things used to be. It just turned, got dark, dramatic, moody.....you know the usual adjectives people used. And the family dynamic also seemed to dwindle.

Still, there are some amazing episodes in every season of the show, I guess after four years of one thing Season 5 is like being dipped in cold water. It's like the transition season. If that makes any sense.

[caz963]

I never really got the S5 hate thing, either. Sure, there are things wrong with parts of it, but there are some very good episodes - and as I'm very fond of saying "West Wing on a bad day was still miles ahead of anything else on television."
Not that they were all bad days, but you get what I mean.

Like you, I attribute some of the Pod!Leo-ness at the start of the season to all the crap he's been dealing with; Jed becoming distant from him, you know there have been times when Leo and Abbey haven't seen eye-to-eye, etc. etc.

I also think that some of the post-Sorkin writers took longer to find their feet than others, but one of the things they recognised that they had to do was to further develop Donna. quaggy_mire said it right when she said in that S1-4, Donna was "an assistant, wanting to do something more" but by S5 and 6, she was "something more stuck in the role of an assistant." The new guys knew they had to make her "something more" if she was ever going to end up with Josh, because, much as I adored them, a relationship between them

[so_bambiesque]

Like raedbard said above, "Perhaps the early seasons are so packed full of those moments for some of us that we tend to be more derisive of the seasons where they don't seem to come up so often.". Season 5 was never going to live up to the first four. I think that the last three seasons were a totally different animal, especially with all of the new guys. Not a bad animal, just a different one.

I think you only have to look back to The Stackhouse Filibuster, and maybe even earlier, I can't think of anything earlier right now, to know that Donna was way too smart to stay an assistant forever. I really worry that if Sorkin stayed, she wouldn't have developed at all, and I'd never say that I'm glad he left, but I guess it had it's potential benefits, at least where Donna is concerned. Blasphemy.

See, I do think that she should have said it. It was pretty clear that Donna was just staying for Josh, and holding herself back, and if she was going to listen to anyone, I think it would be CJ. Maybe CJ didn't intend it to all blurt out like that,

[caz963]

But there's still soooo much than just hot!Josh to redeem season 5!

Yes - but picspamming pretty!Josh is a nice way to unwind after writing loads of school reports! :-)