Pregnancy during initiation

[sol_et_luna]

Here's an interesting yet controversial topic that has made its way to the goldendawnmeetingplace forum. Now, usually our controversial topics involve pelting other orders with watermelons and such, but this is an interesting turn in which people are actually arguing about something other than wars between rival GD orders

Comments

[frater_pfdv]

as a chartered initiator in the OTO, I would not feel comfortable initiating someone who has passed the first trimester.

Though it may depend partly on the nature of the initiation and the will of the candidate, pregnancy itself, IMHO, is an initiation unto itself and I have reservations 'tainting' that experience.

[airthesea]

That's bullshit and I bet those people are men.

I completely agree with your view/belief.

[sol_et_luna]

Ding ding ding!

Yes, all but one who are opposed to initiating women while pregnant are men. As a male friend of mine put it, it seems to be mostly a bunch of men who are looking to guess at what it's like for a woman to undergo pregnancy. I think for some of them it's a sexist thing but for others it's just sheer innocence due to ignorance.

[frater_pfdv]

for me it's not a matter of ignorance...it's a matter of safety and responsability...and if I am painted as a 'sexist pig' for that I will gladly take such critisism.

[sol_et_luna]

Nope, I would not give you that label. I do think that it's right to be cautious, as being pregnant is a medical condition. You want the safety of the mother and the child she is carrying to be at the utmost priority. It's why we sign those forms that ask about things like medications or whatnot--it's just common sense.

Now, whether or not I would refuse a pregnant woman outright--no. If I had reason to believe that her state of health wasn't good as a result of her pregnancy, then I would. Some women have a more difficult time than others.

[stevensteven]

While it's prudent to be cautious when a woman is pregnant, many initiations involve the taking of oaths or other assertions of will including the filling out of an application. Since the fetus is not asserting its will nor signing any applications or taking any oaths, I would not consider the fetus initiated, nor do I beleieve any harm would come to it in any initiations that I know of.

[sol_et_luna]

Agreed completely. Basically, I wound up posting something to the effect of this:

I think that you are confusing the start of an alchemical process with an initiation. While the 0=0 Neophyte ritual does indeed start an alchemical process, the alchemical process itself is not the be-all and end-all of initiation. The fetus is not put into a little black tau robe, hoodwinked, and taken through the Hall of the Neophyte--nor is it making any oaths. Therefore, you cannot initiate a fetus and since that fetus cannot be initiated, the only harm that can possibly fall upon it is any physical trauma done to the mother through the course of the initiation.

[khasekhem]

I can think of several initiations with physical aspects that would preclude a pregnant woman taking part. Physical challenges and the use of psychoactive drugs spring to mind. As does any use of Abramelin oil, which contains an abortive agent.

My personal thoughts on the issue

[brontosproximo]

There is no "date" at which the soul joins the body in the womb.

It is my opinion that they wait until after childbirth.

[tzaddi_93]

I won't get into the soul/no soul issue. Parents make decisions for children all the time, and anything the mother choses to ingest during pregnancy can affect the fetus profoundly. I don't see the energy of initiation as any different

[sol_et_luna]

And another thing to consider--what about the Will of the other parent? It's not just the energy affecting the baby that should be considered. If I was an initiator being asked to initiate a pregnant woman, I would want to know that the other parent was aware of and ok with the potential risks involved before deciding if I would perform the ritual.

If this were the case, using the same logic I would need my hypothetical husband's permission to be initiated--after all, being married our alembics would overlap to a certain extent, and my involvement with either the Golden Dawn or OTO would in turn affect him.

Just my perspective....

[tzaddi_93]

I disagree. I was referring to the potential physical danger to a fetus, which is the child of two parents.

To clarify: I wasn't saying or implying that I would require a permission slip from the other parent. Nor would I initiate contact with the other parent on my own. But I would be very concerned if the potential candidate had not, at the very least, discussed safety concerns with the child's other parent. I would want to talk to the potential candidate, discussing how healthy she has been during the pregnancy and any activity restrictions set/recommended by the OB or midwife. At this time, I would likely ask about discussions the potential candidate had with the child's other parent and inquire if the other parent had any questions for me. If so, I would endeavor to answer the questions without violating any of my oaths.

And of course, all of this is completely hypothetical, since I am not an initiator at this time. :)

[sol_et_luna]

IMHO and FWIW, the fetus shouldn't be in any physical danger unless the following criteria are met:

1) the woman in question is having a difficult pregnancy and her doctor has specifically told her to take it easy.

2) the initiation is question is physically taxing for whatever reason. Perhaps certain ways of performing the Adeptus Minor rite may qualify for this. I cannot speak for OTO initiations and if I could I would not comment on them here for this post isn't filtered to only OTO initiates--and I can only comment on published GD works.

Now, I know for a fact that the woman, if physically okay, should have zero issues with her or her unborn child undergoing any of the initiations for the GD up to and including Portal. Even depending on the 5=6 it could be okay.