I don't normally consider myself an angry person. I don't go around kicking puppies or punching holes in walls, but over the last day or so, I've been considering whether or not I default to anger
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I think this is a good opportunity to go again through the reason why you have packaged Chromium in the first place? Does anything changed on those reasons? Is what Chris Di Bona that much important for you and for your work on chromium? Or on the other hand, is chromium that much important?
Spot, I've seen you ask hard questions of people in front of a group before, and you've always done so in a calm and respectful manner (and the person being asked always responded so as well.) I suspect any 'anger' that Mr. DiBona claimed he perceived was just a projection.
"...Almost no one is useful and productive when they're angry. This is why snark isn't useful or productive."
Very well said, I hope I can remember this next flame war ;-)
I would be the first to apologize..cdibonaJuly 26 2010, 04:58:49 UTC
If that is how it happened. You opened your question with "Google Abuses Distributions in the way that it ships chrome." and that's when I was fairly strident with you.
I took (and take) umbrage with the idea that we are somehow intentionally 'abusing' distributions simply via static linking, and to present it that way to me in a forum like that, or any forum, is to invite a similarly strident response.
I offered to take your concerns back to the team, and I'll do so, for the good of the project and for your distributions and those like yours, and I'll do so happily, as that's what's best for both projects.
But, your passion was anger that day. I answered in turn. I'd rather that we weren't at odds, though, for sure. I'll be in cambridge in late September and I'll be out to Red Hat, likely as not, if you'd like to bury the hatchet (hopefully not in me...)
Re: I would be the first to apologize..jspaletaJuly 26 2010, 21:30:41 UTC
I take it this session was not actually recorded? Not even the audio?
For all the grief that mailinglists and other text based media cause, the one real advantage of them is the fact that they are easily archived and easily referenced when something is misremembered on in dispute after the fact.
Any sort of lessons-learned in face-to-face confrontation gets hamstrung by differences in memory of events. The same reason why eyewitnesses are not all that reliable a source of information in a jury trial.
I'd like to see conferences about open source do a much better job of recording and archiving at least the audio from sessions to be released at a reasonable later date.
Elephant in the Room
anonymous
July 26 2010, 14:37:58 UTC
Spot, your effort to package Chromium is _very_ much appreciated. (Even now, I'm waiting eagerly for your next package.)
I think DiBona's response is understandable (though not justified) because the fact of the matter is that Chromium is _not_ playing nice, and it's an institutional attitude, and Chris knows it, but can't say it. You put him on the spot, and he was uncomfortable because he knows Google's culture well-enough to know that you were right, and that there was no good answer.
But, you're right that you shouldn't get angry, and the way to avoid anger is to expect that Google will not go out of their way to make chromium easier to package, because it directly competes with Chrome. The easier chromium is to install, the fewer 'metrics' Google can collect from instrumented Chrome installs.
So, spot, keep up the good work (and fight) in *spite* of the un-helpfulness of chromium devs. That's exactly why we need you.
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"...Almost no one is useful and productive when they're angry. This is why snark isn't useful or productive."
Very well said, I hope I can remember this next flame war ;-)
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I took (and take) umbrage with the idea that we are somehow intentionally 'abusing' distributions simply via static linking, and to present it that way to me in a forum like that, or any forum, is to invite a similarly strident response.
I offered to take your concerns back to the team, and I'll do so, for the good of the project and for your distributions and those like yours, and I'll do so happily, as that's what's best for both projects.
But, your passion was anger that day. I answered in turn. I'd rather that we weren't at odds, though, for sure. I'll be in cambridge in late September and I'll be out to Red Hat, likely as not, if you'd like to bury the hatchet (hopefully not in me...)
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I'm still not sure it merited the response you chose to give.
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For all the grief that mailinglists and other text based media cause, the one real advantage of them is the fact that they are easily archived and easily referenced when something is misremembered on in dispute after the fact.
Any sort of lessons-learned in face-to-face confrontation gets hamstrung by differences in memory of events. The same reason why eyewitnesses are not all that reliable a source of information in a jury trial.
I'd like to see conferences about open source do a much better job of recording and archiving at least the audio from sessions to be released at a reasonable later date.
-jef
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I think DiBona's response is understandable (though not justified) because the fact of the matter is that Chromium is _not_ playing nice, and it's an institutional attitude, and Chris knows it, but can't say it. You put him on the spot, and he was uncomfortable because he knows Google's culture well-enough to know that you were right, and that there was no good answer.
But, you're right that you shouldn't get angry, and the way to avoid anger is to expect that Google will not go out of their way to make chromium easier to package, because it directly competes with Chrome. The easier chromium is to install, the fewer 'metrics' Google can collect from instrumented Chrome installs.
So, spot, keep up the good work (and fight) in *spite* of the un-helpfulness of chromium devs. That's exactly why we need you.
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