Yeah, Dumbledore's manipulation bothered me. Doesn't match with his otherwise courteous nature. But he didn't die helplessly. You don't need a wand to be powerful, and Dumbledore always knew that. He had the situation---almost---under control, despite the major disadvantage of not having a wand and facing four (or was it five?) enemies, when Snape got there. I thought he was begging Snape not to kill him, but hmmmm. That wouldn't really fit Dumbledore's character, would it?
I think the control was a matter of luck - Draco, and only Draco, was supposed to kill him, and he had made Draco hesitant. Unless this sort of initiation wasn't unusual, and Dumbledore was familiar with it; or if Dumbledore was astute enough to work it out; or if Snape had told him about the stupid plan and his position in it, which is possible but also really effin' weird and makes my head hurt. In that case, Dumbledore was buying enough time to make Draco uneasy, refuse to act, and turn to Dumbledore for protection. And he was buying time either way.
What he was really in control of was himself.
...if Snape did tell Dumbledore, then that plea... then Dumbledore knew he was going to die because Snape had come. How horrible
( ... )
Harry leaves things up to luck all the time, but Dumbledore never---well, rarely---does. You never know how much Dumbledore knows or doesn't know: we know he doesn't know everything, but he knows a heck of a lot more than anyone thinks. So how much did he know, and how much did he guess, and was he just pretending to know, as a way to get control of the situation.
Good point about the trauma. I wish we knew more about what that potion did. Hmmm...why couldn't they just pour it out on the ground? Why did he have to drink it?
Quite. It makes it so, so hard to tell what's going on. But it's almost certain that Dumbledore knew something, and even if he didn't, he caught on very fast. It was rather obvious that Draco was supposed to be killing him and was afraid to. And, even with backing, would probably still be afraid to. It's just that he really didn't need to know more - unless 'please' is as important as I've been making it out to be.
Methinks there's some sort of enchantment (which Dumbledore has seen before, and in my head, used by Grindewald) or binding magic (similar to blood magic; is there any way that emerald green potion could translate to bread and salt?) involved, that Dumbledore knew about. We don't, and we may or may not find out.
A friend is contemplating this -- will link you if you like -- essence of dementor or boggart, maybe. Childish syntax, fear; he doesn't like it, he doesn't want to do it (something he's being forced into doing), he's guilt-stricken, he wants it to stop. Mix of memory and worst nightmare, maybe...
Random thought: Snape tells Harry in OotP that Voldemort sensed his presence in his mind during the attack on Mr Weasley. Did he really, or did Snape tell him that?
I'm so lost on what to think about Snape. Because yes, he would have died if he didn't go through with it, but there was still the matter of having 'revulsion and hatred etched into the harsh lines of his face.'
Yes, but revulsion and hatred at what? At Dumbledore? Or at the untenable position he finds himself in, ie, at Voldemort.
Dumbledore would think nothing of sacrificing himself to protect the security ot the OOTP. And that is precisely what is at stake. Dumbledore dies to avoid the outing of Snape as a member of the Order, something which, if discovered, could undo a great deal of work.
No, I think that after a brief stay at the Dursleys, Harry's going to walk into Grimauld, find Snape on the Sofa and Remus taking him aside to explain things.
It undoes a great deal of work anyway. Harry's the person who gives the Order their information on Snape - no one else knows anything about Dumbledore's death; he was the only witness on their side; he's the only one with any information. And they've gone off to condemn Snape too. (Can't give specific quotes, because I lent my book out to a friend; sob.) Which means that if the Order sees him, they'll kill him - similar to what a lot of us hypothesized about Sirius, but much more dire. Because killing Dumbledore is much, much worse than betraying the Potters, however valued the Potters were.
Snape is still in a position to undermine the Death Eaters - the closer he is to Voldemort, the better - but he can't go on spying when his spymasters are against him.
Interesting. The little bit about trying to worm the memory out of - blast, I'm blanking on the new Potions professor's name, but anyway, him, convinced me once and for all that he was a manipulative bastard. Though I suppose, in a sense, it's better that he was at least doing it openly with Harry.
Of course. But only one person is dancing about on his strings, as opposed to everyone. Using Harry as a tool to get through to Slughorn was wrong, and the fact that Harry used drunkenness as a tool so easily was really disturbing. Not to mention his behavior at the Dursleys, which really unnerved me. They must have been waiting for him to snap and go violent. That was the entire point of his conduct. (And why on earth did he wait so long to do this?)
But at least it was clear that he actually was manipulating them. And he still was manipulating Harry - using Harry as a tool to do his maneuverings for him. You know, 'much less' is a really, really bad assessment. Oops.
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Snape...I dunno. Must do much thinking on that.
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What he was really in control of was himself.
...if Snape did tell Dumbledore, then that plea... then Dumbledore knew he was going to die because Snape had come. How horrible ( ... )
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Good point about the trauma. I wish we knew more about what that potion did. Hmmm...why couldn't they just pour it out on the ground? Why did he have to drink it?
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Methinks there's some sort of enchantment (which Dumbledore has seen before, and in my head, used by Grindewald) or binding magic (similar to blood magic; is there any way that emerald green potion could translate to bread and salt?) involved, that Dumbledore knew about. We don't, and we may or may not find out.
A friend is contemplating this -- will link you if you like -- essence of dementor or boggart, maybe. Childish syntax, fear; he doesn't like it, he doesn't want to do it (something he's being forced into doing), he's guilt-stricken, he wants it to stop. Mix of memory and worst nightmare, maybe...
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I'm so lost on what to think about Snape. Because yes, he would have died if he didn't go through with it, but there was still the matter of having 'revulsion and hatred etched into the harsh lines of his face.'
*goes back to marinating over it*
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Dumbledore would think nothing of sacrificing himself to protect the security ot the OOTP. And that is precisely what is at stake. Dumbledore dies to avoid the outing of Snape as a member of the Order, something which, if discovered, could undo a great deal of work.
No, I think that after a brief stay at the Dursleys, Harry's going to walk into Grimauld, find Snape on the Sofa and Remus taking him aside to explain things.
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Snape is still in a position to undermine the Death Eaters - the closer he is to Voldemort, the better - but he can't go on spying when his spymasters are against him.
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She wants to trick us into thinking he's turned over completely.
There is more to this.
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Interesting. The little bit about trying to worm the memory out of - blast, I'm blanking on the new Potions professor's name, but anyway, him, convinced me once and for all that he was a manipulative bastard. Though I suppose, in a sense, it's better that he was at least doing it openly with Harry.
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But at least it was clear that he actually was manipulating them. And he still was manipulating Harry - using Harry as a tool to do his maneuverings for him. You know, 'much less' is a really, really bad assessment. Oops.
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