Thinking on Jewish representation and Willow R.

[leela_cat]

Talking yesterday, one of the things that I joked about was that, if there's anyone on TV (past or present) who represents me, then Willow Rosenberg is as close as it gets. Except not so much

Comments

[tx_cronopio]

Gosh -- did you read Batdina's post? If you didn't, you might want to give it a look.

[leela_cat]

Yes, I did. And I talked with her about this post and she said that this was a good way of talking about the issue.

She wasn't so much trying to shut down the conversation, but to give some guidelines about how to frame it.

[executrix]

(this is one of my stealth BtVS icons).

I didn't have any Jewish education or any connection to a Jewish community (other than being indoctrinated that the ineffable superiority of Jews to everybody else is demonstrated by, e.g., complete lack of manual skills), so I find Willow very credible as someone who is similarly outside many kinds of Judaism.

[leela_cat]

(and a great stealth icon it is)

You know, I'm glad that Willow is a representation of someone in the Jewish community.

I didn't so much get the ineffable superiority of Jews but, yes totally, to the lack of manual skills. Which is why my ex-husband's uncle the electrician blew my mind.

[aecamadi]

So we're suggesting that Ms. Hanigan needed to do what?

- Refuse to say that (apparently) stupid line on the grounds that the Jewishness of Willow hadn't been appropriately established?
- Fight to have Willow doing more Jewish stuff?
- Brought some of her own Judaism in some respect into her characterization? (How can we say that she didn't?)

I understand saying this character's Judaism seemed to be non-existent until the writers wanted to mention it and when they did it was done awkwardly. But isn't there a point to say that perhaps was an informed choice by the actress to not portray the character as "specifically Jewish" compared to her peers, and certainly with regard to any sort of stereotypes or religious observances or even religious... paraphernalia (for lack of a better word) because that's how she feels about her own Judaism?

I suppose ultimate the question is: what should Willow's Judaism have looked like? More like yours? What about mine? Whose standard is the standard?

[leela_cat]

I suppose ultimate the question is: what should Willow's Judaism have looked like? More like yours? What about mine? Whose standard is the standard?

This was the question that I was trying to ask (although obviously not very clearly) in my post.

Willow's Judaism is not the same as mine, even though she is in many ways very similar to me. OTOH, executrix says Willow is a representation of her type of Jewishness and *that* makes me happy.

The other thing that I was trying to explore is the different varieties of Jewishness on the screen and in text. Not specifically looking for characters who represent me, but trying to find the ways in which the characters that others see *do* represent them and their kind of Judaism/Jewishness.

Does that make more sense?

[kali921]

I don't care so much that she looks Jewish, or even so much that she's not religiously observant, I wanted something Jewish to be intrinsic to the way the character acted.What I find troubling in an otherwise great post is that so many people still operate on the assumption that there is still a Jewish look, or that Jews are supposed to appear a certain way. Granted, this perceptual framework is both ambiguously culturally intrinsic and extrinsic, but I still am very uncomfortable with it. What are Jews supposed to look like? Why do we still operate under the paradigm that the motley tribe that comprises self-identified Jews still have to conform to a certain phenotype in order for the cultural marker of "Jew" or "looks Jewish" to be placed on them

[leela_cat]

Hmm... I'm still finding my way around talking about these subjects and clearly haven't gotten there yet.

I wasn't trying to state that there is a Jewish look. In fact, like you, I hate that some people think there is a "Jewish look" because whatever their opinion is, I'm unlikely to match it and neither are most of my Jewish friends. My Jewishness has been questioned in the past by people who didn't think I looked "Jewish enough" -- whatever that means.

But, at the same time, many people look to the TV or the movies or books to try and find someone who represents us. And that's what I was asking in my post. Not about what doesn't work for people in what they see on screen or read in text. But to try to find out which characters do work for them and why.

[kali921]

Again, given the hazy and motley nexus of Jewish identity, if a character states they are Jewish, then they represent as Jewish to me, whether they are hardcore atheists with no ties to traditional Jewish spirituality and/or religion, converts to Judaism, Orthodox, Israeli Jews, half Jewish, a quarter Jewish, Buddhists, etc. It depends on how they identify, and I would hope as a Jew that I'm infinitely accepting of anyone who wants to identify as same regardless of their choices of how they interact with and conceptualize their own Judaism. At least, that's my goal. Five thousand years ago one could argue with intellectual credibility that there was a Jewish "look." The Jews could be originally classified as a Semitic tribe. But people of Semitic origin are by no means uniform in appearance and coloring, and with all the intermarriage and out migrations from their geographic origin, any conceptions about Jews conforming to a stereotypical appearance are void in my personal opinion, and I also consider racism and antisemitism to have

[leela_cat]

I agree that we should be troubled that this conception still exists. I don't have a lot of experience with Jews outside of North America. So, I can't comment on whether it's necessarily true that conception doesn't exist outside of this piece of the diaspora.

Although, you're right, the Israelis of my acquaintance don't question my Jewishness.

[gnomi]

I'm a Modern Orthodox woman. No character in any film or TV show I have seen has ever shown the reality of my practice.

[jonbaker]

And Willow disappointed me. The only Jewish thing she ever said that I saw, was that her father would have a fit that his daughter was hanging a cross in her room, as vamp protection. No menorah on the bookshelf (like Rugrats, even before they introduced Boris & Minka), no mezuzah on the door, no mention of "I'm not going to be in school tomorrow, it's Yom Kippur", nothing.

And then she goes and becomes Wiccan.

I'm sure that's the reality of plenty of Jews, but does the only point of comment have to be about keeping a cross?

[kali921]

This reminds me of something that I liked about the early Anita Blake books, before they became a sucking Stygian vortex of nonstop porn: LKH pointed out in the books more than once that any religious or spiritual symbol charged with the wielder's faith would work against vampires and demons.

[jonbaker]

I saw a Doctor Who years ago (I think with Peter Davison, or maybe Tom Baker) that made exactly the same point. There were these sea-vampires (sort of Lovecraftian now that I think about it, but I hadn't yet read Lovecraft in high school). The old Anglican priest who had lost his faith, his bible and cross didn't protect him. The Soviet soldiers marching around, their Communist stars did protect them, because they really believed in the Communist system.

Which leads me to wonder - what would be the equivalent symbol for Jews? For a man, probably tefillin. For a woman (since most women don't use tefillin), what? The "Jewish star" is not really such an old symbol. A menorah?