Unfashionably late
Disclaimer and Warnings: I did not read everything that was posted recently about Joe and Billy. In fact, I didn't read most of it. Mostly because I tend to have a very hard time putting thoughts into words that actually make sense to other people. I think I generally have impressions more than specific thoughts (again, with the sense-making). So when I read or listen to someone's viewpoint, I can be pretty affected by it. I don't mean that I simply follow the crowd and never think for myself, but instead of thinking about something and forcing myself to put it in my own words, I may just refer back to something someone else said. If I repeat anything that's been said, I apologize.
I like Joe. I like Billy. I think that neither one of them is an asshole or actually trying to hurt the other. I think what they really need is a good kick in the ass and some lessons in communication skills.
I am a self-proclaimed idealistic romantic.
I welcome and encourage all arguments, thoughts, comments, and questions. Although, it's obvious from this that it's hard to get me to shut up about them once you get me started!
Note: Apparently this isn't a theory. It's a fucking treatise. I apologize in advance for length, but I have been thinking about these two almost non-stop for at least a week and a half now. That's a lot of thoughts.
strangecobwebs' Naive, Idealistic, Romanticized Thoughts on Hard Core Logo (or, Why Neither Joe nor Billy Is an Asshole)
If I had to choose one word to describe Joe Dick, I think it would be desperate. I think he's just so scared that Billy will come back and then leave him again. And he doesn't know how to communicate that without violence or manipulation. The benefit, and Joe faking it is, I think, his way of trying to say to Billy, "I love you. I want you to come back. I want you to be with me. Stay." I don't think he ever intends to hurt Billy, but I do think he is very careless and thinks that the ends justify any means necessary. More than anything, I think he's just scared and desperate and never learned how to commuicate such emotions very well.
I also think Joe has a problem in that he's completely trapped in this loud, brash, obnoxious punk image that he's made for himself. He's never been any other way. I don't think it's something that he's necessarily all that conscious of either. For instance, I don't think Joe sits there and thinks, "Well, I could tell Billy how I feel, but that would make me a pussy or whatever. Punks don't do that." But I bet he thought that when he was 15 years old. (As far as my limited experience goes, a lot of 15-year-old boys think that.) Twenty years later, I think it's just an ingrained habit, whether he wants it to be or not.
There is the question of why Joe even fucked everything up the first time too. He and Billy grew up together and were in bands together left and right. Why on earth would Joe want to give up the opportunity to get a contract? In my mind, it's partly that he may have felt he was losing Billy. Billy was probably getting a little chummy with Ed Festus by this point, and his ambitions were probably a little more obvious. But I also think Joe was afraid to give up control of the band. He knew that things would probably change drastically when they got signed, and he just couldn't handle giving that up. Joe "manages" (or so he says *g*), and he'd already have given up a lot to Ed Festus when he came into the picture. So right when Billy's this close to getting everything he's ever wanted with everyone he's ever wanted it with, Joe is this close to losing what he has.
I think it's important to realize that Billy's a lot more ambitious than Joe ever has been or ever will be. I think it's even more important to realize that it's not a bad thing. Some people are, some people aren't. Personally, I've never had the kind of drive that Billy does, and I often wish I did. At least he knows what he wants and he wants it bad enough to try for it.
I just don't think Billy is actively trying to manipulate or trick Joe. I don't think he's looking for revenge or anything. The question of why Billy even comes back at all is, I think, an incredibly important one and has a resonating effect throughout the movie. One of the major reasons that I think Billy comes back at all is that he thinks he's got Jennifur all lined up. He's "just waiting on some papers." And I don't think he would have been nearly as open about or willing to discuss Jennifur if he had any doubts. So if he decides to come back and do this bullshit benefit that Joe's got lined up, he knows that he can't get dragged back down by Joe and by Hard Core Logo. Because he has something to come back to. He has an anchor. He has a ready excuse for leaving. Not really an excuse, but he has a reason to go. Joe can't say, "If you leave, what the hell are you going back to? You might as well stay."
I'm sure Joe knew that Jennifur was probably taking some time off, and planned the benefit around that. I'm also sure that it wasn't an easy decision for Billy to say yes. But if he had the time and something bigger and better lined up (which also means he could show off around Joe - a little side benefit there), why shouldn't he go? It's been almost five years. You know he missed Joe, and Pipe and John too. (I also think that after five years, it would be a hell of a lot easier to remember the fun they had on tour rather than losing cash to hookers, fighting, etc.)
All of that, of course, leads to another question: Why did Billy agree to the tour? In my opinion, Billy had a good fucking time on stage with Hard Core Logo. I think they all did. It was right back into the old groove, you know? They played well, the crowd was awesome and loved them, it was just a good time. So Billy's still riding on that high a little when Joe asks him about the tour. And it's only a week. Five cities. He's still got the time off from Jennifur. So why the hell not? When he gets back, he's done. Hell, this could actually be fun.
And then Billy's world comes crashing the fuck down with one phone message. All of a sudden, he's nearly 35 and back where he was 5 years ago. Actually, he's worse off. At least before, HCL was doing well. They had a good fan base. They were going to get signed by a major label. (Yes, Joe fucked it up, but that's not the point at the moment.) I think at that point, Billy's just tired. He's evaluating his life, and it ain't looking that great. He just lost the most successful deal he's had in a long time, and probably the most he'll have, at least for a little while. And then Joe starts talking about the two of them working together again.
I really just don't think Billy was lying or fucking around with Joe. I think he resigned himself to the fact that maybe he just wasn't going to go as far as he thought. (And here, I'm simply drawing conclusions. I'm 23; I can only imagine what it would feel like to lose your dream job at 35 when you finally thought you had it. And maybe some people would say, "Oh, he's still young, he's got plenty of time." But Billy's in the music business. How many people can you think of "make it" after the age of 30? So in some businesses and careers, yes, he's got time. But not this business.)
So Billy's standing there, looking around, and he's not seeing much. What he does see, he probably doesn't like a whole lot. Dream job? Gone. Green card? Gone. Reunion tour? Eh. Had its moments. Daughter? WTF? He's got one of those? And she's what? Five? Six? And so when Joe starts talking about going on and continuing with music, I don't think it sounds so bad to Billy. He's got nowhere else to go at that point. So this thing with Joe is something anyway. And I think everyone has had or will have at least one point in their lives when they seriously consider "settling," whether it's what town to live in or where to go on vacation or what the hell to eat for lunch. Some do settle, some don't. Depends on who you are and what the situation is.
So what happens when you've decided and verbally committed to settling and then you find out you can get the dream? Would you really give up the dream? Now, here's where I don't want to say that Billy doesn't love Joe as much as Joe loves Billy. I think Billy really does love Joe. I also think that Billy has moved on in the last few years. He's tried really hard to grow up a little. Joe, on the other hand, I think kept living in the past in that aspect. He probably expected - maybe not expected, but wanted everything to be exactly the same when Billy came back.
Billy grew up a little in some ways, and I'm sure Joe did too. But, like sageness said to me, they still communicate with each other like they're 12-year-old boys. They just can't talk to each other. I think a lot of their relationship, especially when they were younger, probably didn't rely so much on words. They "got" each other in a way that no one else ever did or will. And then they're back together and it doesn't work that way anymore. And, really, if I thought a slap upside the head would get each of them to spit out coherent words, I'd have done that a long time ago.
Two more really quick things that I didn't mention above:
1. I was thinking on the train home today. Did Joe steal the gun from Bucky?
2. The "rape" part. I don't know how literally I take John's version. I think by that point in the movie, you've got to take whatever John says with a teaspoon (not a grain) of salt. And right afterwards, he asks Mary her name. He knew her before. She's been backstage for a little while, so he should have heard her name. Also, it may be that John really believes what he says. But didn't he have a breakdown not too long after that? So how stable was he then? I'm just thinking that that whole thing is open to really wide interpretation. This is just how I see it.
Ok, if you made it this far? Wow. I am impressed. You deserve a prize! :)
Now then. What do you think?
I like Joe. I like Billy. I think that neither one of them is an asshole or actually trying to hurt the other. I think what they really need is a good kick in the ass and some lessons in communication skills.
I am a self-proclaimed idealistic romantic.
I welcome and encourage all arguments, thoughts, comments, and questions. Although, it's obvious from this that it's hard to get me to shut up about them once you get me started!
Note: Apparently this isn't a theory. It's a fucking treatise. I apologize in advance for length, but I have been thinking about these two almost non-stop for at least a week and a half now. That's a lot of thoughts.
strangecobwebs' Naive, Idealistic, Romanticized Thoughts on Hard Core Logo (or, Why Neither Joe nor Billy Is an Asshole)
If I had to choose one word to describe Joe Dick, I think it would be desperate. I think he's just so scared that Billy will come back and then leave him again. And he doesn't know how to communicate that without violence or manipulation. The benefit, and Joe faking it is, I think, his way of trying to say to Billy, "I love you. I want you to come back. I want you to be with me. Stay." I don't think he ever intends to hurt Billy, but I do think he is very careless and thinks that the ends justify any means necessary. More than anything, I think he's just scared and desperate and never learned how to commuicate such emotions very well.
I also think Joe has a problem in that he's completely trapped in this loud, brash, obnoxious punk image that he's made for himself. He's never been any other way. I don't think it's something that he's necessarily all that conscious of either. For instance, I don't think Joe sits there and thinks, "Well, I could tell Billy how I feel, but that would make me a pussy or whatever. Punks don't do that." But I bet he thought that when he was 15 years old. (As far as my limited experience goes, a lot of 15-year-old boys think that.) Twenty years later, I think it's just an ingrained habit, whether he wants it to be or not.
There is the question of why Joe even fucked everything up the first time too. He and Billy grew up together and were in bands together left and right. Why on earth would Joe want to give up the opportunity to get a contract? In my mind, it's partly that he may have felt he was losing Billy. Billy was probably getting a little chummy with Ed Festus by this point, and his ambitions were probably a little more obvious. But I also think Joe was afraid to give up control of the band. He knew that things would probably change drastically when they got signed, and he just couldn't handle giving that up. Joe "manages" (or so he says *g*), and he'd already have given up a lot to Ed Festus when he came into the picture. So right when Billy's this close to getting everything he's ever wanted with everyone he's ever wanted it with, Joe is this close to losing what he has.
I think it's important to realize that Billy's a lot more ambitious than Joe ever has been or ever will be. I think it's even more important to realize that it's not a bad thing. Some people are, some people aren't. Personally, I've never had the kind of drive that Billy does, and I often wish I did. At least he knows what he wants and he wants it bad enough to try for it.
I just don't think Billy is actively trying to manipulate or trick Joe. I don't think he's looking for revenge or anything. The question of why Billy even comes back at all is, I think, an incredibly important one and has a resonating effect throughout the movie. One of the major reasons that I think Billy comes back at all is that he thinks he's got Jennifur all lined up. He's "just waiting on some papers." And I don't think he would have been nearly as open about or willing to discuss Jennifur if he had any doubts. So if he decides to come back and do this bullshit benefit that Joe's got lined up, he knows that he can't get dragged back down by Joe and by Hard Core Logo. Because he has something to come back to. He has an anchor. He has a ready excuse for leaving. Not really an excuse, but he has a reason to go. Joe can't say, "If you leave, what the hell are you going back to? You might as well stay."
I'm sure Joe knew that Jennifur was probably taking some time off, and planned the benefit around that. I'm also sure that it wasn't an easy decision for Billy to say yes. But if he had the time and something bigger and better lined up (which also means he could show off around Joe - a little side benefit there), why shouldn't he go? It's been almost five years. You know he missed Joe, and Pipe and John too. (I also think that after five years, it would be a hell of a lot easier to remember the fun they had on tour rather than losing cash to hookers, fighting, etc.)
All of that, of course, leads to another question: Why did Billy agree to the tour? In my opinion, Billy had a good fucking time on stage with Hard Core Logo. I think they all did. It was right back into the old groove, you know? They played well, the crowd was awesome and loved them, it was just a good time. So Billy's still riding on that high a little when Joe asks him about the tour. And it's only a week. Five cities. He's still got the time off from Jennifur. So why the hell not? When he gets back, he's done. Hell, this could actually be fun.
And then Billy's world comes crashing the fuck down with one phone message. All of a sudden, he's nearly 35 and back where he was 5 years ago. Actually, he's worse off. At least before, HCL was doing well. They had a good fan base. They were going to get signed by a major label. (Yes, Joe fucked it up, but that's not the point at the moment.) I think at that point, Billy's just tired. He's evaluating his life, and it ain't looking that great. He just lost the most successful deal he's had in a long time, and probably the most he'll have, at least for a little while. And then Joe starts talking about the two of them working together again.
I really just don't think Billy was lying or fucking around with Joe. I think he resigned himself to the fact that maybe he just wasn't going to go as far as he thought. (And here, I'm simply drawing conclusions. I'm 23; I can only imagine what it would feel like to lose your dream job at 35 when you finally thought you had it. And maybe some people would say, "Oh, he's still young, he's got plenty of time." But Billy's in the music business. How many people can you think of "make it" after the age of 30? So in some businesses and careers, yes, he's got time. But not this business.)
So Billy's standing there, looking around, and he's not seeing much. What he does see, he probably doesn't like a whole lot. Dream job? Gone. Green card? Gone. Reunion tour? Eh. Had its moments. Daughter? WTF? He's got one of those? And she's what? Five? Six? And so when Joe starts talking about going on and continuing with music, I don't think it sounds so bad to Billy. He's got nowhere else to go at that point. So this thing with Joe is something anyway. And I think everyone has had or will have at least one point in their lives when they seriously consider "settling," whether it's what town to live in or where to go on vacation or what the hell to eat for lunch. Some do settle, some don't. Depends on who you are and what the situation is.
So what happens when you've decided and verbally committed to settling and then you find out you can get the dream? Would you really give up the dream? Now, here's where I don't want to say that Billy doesn't love Joe as much as Joe loves Billy. I think Billy really does love Joe. I also think that Billy has moved on in the last few years. He's tried really hard to grow up a little. Joe, on the other hand, I think kept living in the past in that aspect. He probably expected - maybe not expected, but wanted everything to be exactly the same when Billy came back.
Billy grew up a little in some ways, and I'm sure Joe did too. But, like sageness said to me, they still communicate with each other like they're 12-year-old boys. They just can't talk to each other. I think a lot of their relationship, especially when they were younger, probably didn't rely so much on words. They "got" each other in a way that no one else ever did or will. And then they're back together and it doesn't work that way anymore. And, really, if I thought a slap upside the head would get each of them to spit out coherent words, I'd have done that a long time ago.
Two more really quick things that I didn't mention above:
1. I was thinking on the train home today. Did Joe steal the gun from Bucky?
2. The "rape" part. I don't know how literally I take John's version. I think by that point in the movie, you've got to take whatever John says with a teaspoon (not a grain) of salt. And right afterwards, he asks Mary her name. He knew her before. She's been backstage for a little while, so he should have heard her name. Also, it may be that John really believes what he says. But didn't he have a breakdown not too long after that? So how stable was he then? I'm just thinking that that whole thing is open to really wide interpretation. This is just how I see it.
Ok, if you made it this far? Wow. I am impressed. You deserve a prize! :)
Now then. What do you think?