This sets a very dangerous and bad precedent. I feel bad for any director who has to deal with 100+ people who takes said precedent, and I think you'd find it very hard to make friends this way. It is important to separate illegal and malicious behavior. Use discretion
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they won't be happy doing so if their opponents are calling the director on them every 3rd game
Then they should learn how to draw correctly! If it's important enough to be a rule, it's important enough to enforce.
I think Jason is correct... if we all forced our opponents to draw correctly, that would go a long way toward preventing people from cheating. That's a lot of work though so I don't think I would do anything unless I was playing someone suspected of cheating. Usually I pay no attention at all to my opponent when he or she is drawing.
As an example of this rule being annoying, I played someone at SDO who is not at all suspected of cheating. This person blatantly violated the rules for drawing, but I did not call him/her on it, as it would only cause an annoying fuss by disrupting the director, the game, me, my opponent, and the surrounding players.
i long suspected this individual of cheating. in addition, s/he used to (not sure if s/he does anymore. i am happy to report i haven't played him/her in ages) do some tsk noises during games (a doctor should heal hisself or herself, no?), talk during my turn, etc. i had called the director on him in reno a couple of times, many years ago. would have been helpful if others had backed me up then. perhaps kenji woulda been spared this anguish. to be fair, none of the youngsters like cesar, kenji, jesses, conrad, pickaxes, jamez et al used to be in the tourney scrabble scene then.
exasperated, i posted on cgp a contest called "quoth the maven": "an apple a day keeps Dr. Poe away. PLEASE eat an apple a day!"
absent fellow players' support, this was my way of dealing with the bastard.
I check every now and then where my opponent holds the bag as he/she draws, and it's really incredible just how many people will not place the bag high enough. And the vast majority are not cheating, of course.
I do think, though, that if you have a problem with the way your opponent is drawing, you should do something. Whether it's calling the director over or speaking to the director later or whatever else.
As I'm typing this, I'm wondering if the bag itself is the easiest way to help us remedy the problem? Maybe a slightly longer bag with a partially closed off top, so when you reach in there just isn't must space to see in, as your hand/wrist itself blocks you.
Thanks. I've definitely used the "Tile Can", but it's been a long while since I've seen it anywhere.
I'd certainly be willing to deal with the annoyances of it to 'guarantee' no cheating was taking place.
And also, it's completely possible that if people starting buying bags like that, that others will try to design even better versions (i.e. they prevent cheating but aren't quite as annoying. Or Large.)
This is a very nice principle, but it's very hard to execute it... as Kenji says, very hard to make friends this way, yes.
Even if you're not trying to "be a dick about it," you'll inevitably be perceived that way.
There are some people I've known for a relatively long time who hold the bag in an improper place -- people I see every week at club and play with all the time, etc. I would never say anything, because I don't suspect any malice there, and I don't wanna become "that guy who bugs people about drawing." I'm sure others are in the same boat here.
I agree. In fact, someone we know was asked to adjust drawing technique during a tourney, and the perception was that the requestER was just being sorta dickish. Perhaps directors should mill around more, or deputize helpers to keep an eye on people, to take the onus off the opponent. It feels to me that when your opponent says, "Keep your bag up," it sounds more like "you're cheating" than if a director says it to you and some others.
I think how you do it is a big part of it. I guess I would only really recommend this strongly to someone who would get really upset if they lost a game to someone they thought was cheating due to improper bag drawing.
I don't think changing the rules is going to do much--we already have a rule (re drawing) that makes it so it's tough to cheat. The point is you need to get it enforced, right?
Part of this is attitudes, too. There shouldn't be stigma associated with a director call.
There shouldn't be a stigma, but there is; we need to do something to collectively remove the stigma, but I don't know what. Perhaps the directors can remind everyone before the games begin that if an opponent is drawing suspiciously, to gently tell them to raise the bag higher, or hell, change the rule so that "your eyes must be visible while drawing" (actually, I have a feeling this is partly how it's worded). It doesn't have to be an implication of cheating, but there doesn't seem to be an easy way. I think cheaters prey on the fact that it's hard to call them out on it and that there is so much plausible deniability. I tend to notice how all my opponents draw and for a very small number of them, I notice that they draw suspiciously, and that they are noticing that I am noticing them, but no more is said; this is partly my fault of course.
Cheating (or the strong suspicion thereof) can ruin an entire tournament for the cheatee; Kenji completely steamed off his games and I understand exactly how he felt.
You're supposed to display an empty palm before putting your hand in the bag (so you're not putting crappy tiles back IN), and hold the bag ABOVE eye level and avert your eyes (so you're not looking in the bag for letters you want, or looking in your hand just above bag level for tiles that you want).
IV.B.1. How to Draw Tiles Mix the tiles, if desired. (Note: Total mixing time for the entire draw must not exceed 10 seconds.) Hold the bag at eye level or higher and avert your eyes. Never hold tiles in one hand while drawing tiles with the other. Always open the drawing hand before drawing. Place tiles either onto your rack or, preferably, face down on the table and then onto your rack.
Cheaters exist in every sport. It's amazing to me in some ways that the stakes can be as low as they are for us in Scrabble and that people still do it.
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Then they should learn how to draw correctly! If it's important enough to be a rule, it's important enough to enforce.
I think Jason is correct... if we all forced our opponents to draw correctly, that would go a long way toward preventing people from cheating. That's a lot of work though so I don't think I would do anything unless I was playing someone suspected of cheating. Usually I pay no attention at all to my opponent when he or she is drawing.
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i long suspected this individual of cheating. in addition, s/he used to (not sure if s/he does anymore. i am happy to report i haven't played him/her in ages) do some tsk noises during games (a doctor should heal hisself or herself, no?), talk during my turn, etc. i had called the director on him in reno a couple of times, many years ago. would have been helpful if others had backed me up then. perhaps kenji woulda been spared this anguish. to be fair, none of the youngsters like cesar, kenji, jesses, conrad, pickaxes, jamez et al used to be in the tourney scrabble scene then.
exasperated, i posted on cgp a contest called "quoth the maven":
"an apple a day keeps Dr. Poe away. PLEASE eat an apple a day!"
absent fellow players' support, this was my way of dealing with the bastard.
Reply
I do think, though, that if you have a problem with the way your opponent is drawing, you should do something. Whether it's calling the director over or speaking to the director later or whatever else.
As I'm typing this, I'm wondering if the bag itself is the easiest way to help us remedy the problem? Maybe a slightly longer bag with a partially closed off top, so when you reach in there just isn't must space to see in, as your hand/wrist itself blocks you.
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I'd certainly be willing to deal with the annoyances of it to 'guarantee' no cheating was taking place.
And also, it's completely possible that if people starting buying bags like that, that others will try to design even better versions (i.e. they prevent cheating but aren't quite as annoying. Or Large.)
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(The comment has been removed)
Even if you're not trying to "be a dick about it," you'll inevitably be perceived that way.
There are some people I've known for a relatively long time who hold the bag in an improper place -- people I see every week at club and play with all the time, etc. I would never say anything, because I don't suspect any malice there, and I don't wanna become "that guy who bugs people about drawing." I'm sure others are in the same boat here.
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I don't think changing the rules is going to do much--we already have a rule (re drawing) that makes it so it's tough to cheat. The point is you need to get it enforced, right?
Part of this is attitudes, too. There shouldn't be stigma associated with a director call.
Maybe I am being a bit unrealistic.
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Cheating (or the strong suspicion thereof) can ruin an entire tournament for the cheatee; Kenji completely steamed off his games and I understand exactly how he felt.
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it would appear laziness is a main reason why most players do not draw tiles in the correct manner.
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What's it supposed to be, and what are they doing differently when they don't draw correctly?
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IV.B.1. How to Draw Tiles
Mix the tiles, if desired. (Note: Total mixing time for the entire draw must not exceed 10 seconds.) Hold the bag at eye level or higher and avert your eyes. Never hold tiles in one hand while drawing tiles with the other. Always open the drawing hand before drawing. Place tiles either onto your rack or, preferably, face down on the table and then onto your rack.
Cheaters exist in every sport. It's amazing to me in some ways that the stakes can be as low as they are for us in Scrabble and that people still do it.
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