Paul's "Death"

[t_h_mitchell]

In a recent discussion w/ thehonorableryu, I was asked if St. Paul ever mentioned physical death. This topic came up because I mentioned a few times that Paul uses a lot of allegorical language, and thus might not be speaking about a "physical death" when speaking about the "death" of Jesus

Comments

What I've been taught

[christianlady]

If it gives any perspective, I have been taught that Jesus experienced physical death, but as God, who cannot die physically, that part didn't die. I think it's very difficult to get that...

As to what death means, many places where Paul uses it, I've heard that death equals seperation from God. So we've got the death in this world thing (physical death in our bodies) but sin itself seperates us from God, so if we are living in sin we are dead to God. Now, the Christian obviously is not completely free from sin, but being free from death, is no longer seperated from God. I'm sure you'll find a way to tear this all apart. I'm just trying to tell you what I've been taught. So, as I read some passages, I see the physical death, I see the death to sin meaning actually not seperated from God (meaning having a chance to be eternally with God) and I see death to mean seperated from God even if alive physically.

Re: What I've been taught

[t_h_mitchell]

I have been taught that Jesus experienced physical death, but as God, who cannot die physically, that part didn't die

Yes, saying that Jesus both "died" and "didn't die" can be hard to get. ;)

many places where Paul uses it, I've heard that death equals seperation from God.

Can you cite a few chapters or verses where you think this equation is spelled out most clearly?

[thehonorableryu]

I appreciate the time you took to cite the reasons for your interpretations. :)

This being said, I am not sure that your approach toward what verses should be considered to have allegorical intent is entirely consistent. I think you could clarify your views with regard to the following matters.

1. You said that “death” in Romans 1:32 refers to physical death without discussing why we should expect Paul would not go for an allegorical interpretation

[t_h_mitchell]

Paul could be interpreting this Scriptural usage of the word “death” as referring to “eternal punishment,”

I think it makes more sense that Paul is referring to all of the times God said "kill people who do X, Y, and Z". In several places in the OT, God says "murderers" deserve death (Ex 21:12, Lev 24:17-21, Num 35:16-31), "disobeying your parents" deserves death (Deut 21:18-21, Ex 21:15-17, Lev 20:9), and in general if you're "devoted to destruction" (which is what Paul sounds like he's talking about in this whole section), also deserves death (Lev 27:29).

Why would Paul resist interpreting this particular Old Testament passage as having some allegorical significance when it could be so easily fit into his assumed decoding of the scriptures?

I guess I don't understand:

(1) Why Paul couldn't be referring to what I suggested above.
(2) Why Paul would have to make this section sound allegorical.
(3) How this section easily fits into what I've been talking about elsewhere (regarding how Paul decodes "death").

Is there indeed

For clarity

[thehonorableryu]

I understand how your theory (the Orthodox interpretation of this passage) could account for and potentially explain away this oddity in Paul's writing.
I don't see it as an "oddity" at all. :) Earlier in our discussion, I said:

Yes, Paul does say "I die daily." I personally die daily, too, insofar as I would daily face/risk death or allow the Lord Jesus to terminate my self-nature through the real effects of His cross and work Himself into my being. But we've already agreed that Paul uses the word "die" in multiple senses. What case is used depends upon the context.

I, with Paul, believe that that God in Christ actually lives and grows inside His believers. Because we are joined to Him to as one spirit (1 Cor. 6:17), and His Spirit is mingled with our human spirit (Rom. 8:16), He is able to actively and presently dispense all that He is and all that He has accomplished into our being, conforming us to His image day by day--toward a result that would not be possible if we merely had the idea of a crucified and resurrected Christ

Re: For clarity

[t_h_mitchell]

I don't see it as an "oddity" at all. :) Earlier in our discussion, I said: ... I personally die daily, too

Weren't you just trying to convince me that the "I die daily" line meant Paul is exposed to physical death every day? Previously you wrote: "Therefore, it would seem that the sense of "death" Paul describes in 1 Cor. 15:31 is primarily literal and physical death, and he "dies daily" because he is risking/facing/exposed to it daily in harmony with 2 Cor. 11:23-26."

Now you're saying Paul dies daily the same way you do? There's definitely an "oddity" to found somewhere in this discussion. :)

I, with Paul, believe that that God in Christ actually lives and grows inside His believers.

That is what I think Paul is saying. And even in your reformulation of it, there is no need for a historical story to accompany this "christ living in you" idea.

that would not be possible if we merely had the idea of a crucified and resurrected Christ after which we tried to pattern ourselves.I don't see what that wouldn't be possible.

[thehonorableryu]

4. In our preceding discussion, you said that 1 Cor. 15:12-32 does not refer to physical death because Paul allegedly anticipates and counters the notion of a physical resurrection in vv. 35-38.

-Here is the passage:
But someone will say, "How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?"
You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies;
and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of something else
So my question is:
In your thinking, should we take the particular term "dead raised" to indicate the raising of the physically dead in the instance of verse 35 (since Paul is allegedly bringing this concept up in order to refute it), but not in any of the instances in vv. 12-20?

-That Paul mentions "bodies" in v. 35 does not indicate that he is now polemicizing against any kind of resurrection of the literally dead, because he then goes on to describe different kinds of bodies that are yet to be raised and manifested. Note that Paul often

Nitpicky addendum to point 6

[thehonorableryu]

"Abba" occurs only three times in the New Testament: Rom. 8:15, Gal. 4:6 and Mark 14:36. And in the gospel of Mark, He speaks it while praying at Gethsemane, not while dying on the cross.

Where did you get the idea that Jesus cried out "Abba" on the cross?