Dublin worldcon

[tagmeth]

The Dublin schedule is out.  I'm pleased to find that I'm on four events.  Hope to see some of you at some of them!

Autographs: Friday at 11:00
16 Aug 2019, Friday 11:00 - 11:50, Level 4 Foyer (CCD)
Is epic fantasy conservative?
Format: Panel
16 Aug 2019, Friday 13:00 - 13:50, Wicklow Hall-1 (CCD)
Back in 2013, Gollancz’s Twitter account made the

Comments

How wonderful!

[fir_bholg]

And not to spark debate here, or steal from your contributions of the panel, but how do you feel about Epic Fantasy?

Give my love to the Liffey! Dublin is a lovely town.

Re: How wonderful!

[tagmeth]

I don't know if I write epic fantasy or high fantasy or something else altogether. The former strikes me as best-seller formulaic. It has a set of (yes) conservative rules that comfort the reader rather than challenging him/her, or the author either. It looks backward to a golden past and seeks to reestablish it, social system and all. Men (white, straight, upper class) rule, women and lesser mortals serve. Think The Return of the King, except Tolkien does it right, with a sense of grandeur. High fantasy is more literary, with more subtlety. It isn't necessarily as expansive as epic fantasy -- potentially fewer subplots, fewer characters.

It all depends on your definition, and a lot of fantasy slides between the markers.

Also, I'm politically liberal and don't have a high opinion of our current Trumpian conservatives, so I'm prejudiced.

The panel (from its description) seems to be looking specially at the political aspects of conservative epic fantasy. If anyone has any ideas on this, I'd be interested in hearing them.

Re: How wonderful!

[fir_bholg]

Tolkien is definitely the best-known example, but for another I'd look at E.R. Eddison's The Worm Ouroboros, which is not an easy read, but is undoubtedly of epic scope. And Eddison's epic is undoubtedly reaching for a degree of heroism, and heroic romance, he finds lacking in the present day. He might make a more interesting subject than Tolkien. He's certainly less discussed. I like suggesting Worm because it is pre-Tolkien, and not by any measure derivative save perhaps from myth and legend.

Eddison was a weird old bird, and I think the "hearking back to a Heroic Age" aspect of his work is pronounced.

The odd thing is, he was also loved - for his prose, his voice, and his scope, if not his politics - by a later High Fantasist, namely Ursula K. Le Guin, who mentions him specifically as an exemplar of the authentic Fantasy voice in her critical essay, "From Elfland to Poughkeepsie" (which appears in a collection of her nonfiction, The Language of the NightWhich brings us to an interesting question: Is the Earthsea Trilogy an epic?

Re: How wonderful!

[tagmeth]

Yes, I've read Eddison, long ago, at least the first of his trilogy. That's the one that ends with time repeating itself, doesn't it, so that that heroes can repeat their adventures?

Thanks for reminding me of Earthsea. I have multiple copies of the first three novels but had to go to the library to get Tehanu. I may never have read The Other Wind. I think you're right that Le Guin inherited a lot of conventions that, to begin with, she didn't challenge. I came along a little later, but also felt the pressure. Perhaps I can re-read at least some of this work before the con. It sounds like good material for the panel, if reviewed in that light.

(Incidentally, I accidentally plagiarized Le Guin when I named the Eaten One, having forgotten about Tenar. When I apologized to her, she suggested that I refer to the character instead as "the Divine Munchie.")

[mindstalk]

Uh, I tried to reply, but apparently having a single link as a long time member still gets marked as spam. Thanks, LJ.

By the way, have you considered at least backing up your journal to Dreamwidth? Related code base, nicer administration, fewer questionable sites trying to add JavaScript to the page.

[tagmeth]

I wouldn't have the slightest idea how to do this.

[mindstalk]

https ://www.dreamwidth.org/support/faqbrowse?faqid=127
(added a space to the url to defeat the spam filter)

[mindstalk]

As for whether the epic fantasy is generally conservative, I have no idea. Not sure I've read that much of it. The Prydain books owed a lot to Tolkien IMO, though the setting was the size of a postage stamp; you've got some righteous kings going with the Sons of Don but they're magical beings who sail away. The final message is a liberal "it doesn't matter who Taran's parents were, just what he does".

Bujold's Chalion and Sharing Knife series are king of epic low fantasy. Secondary world but magic is usually subtle, but some stakes are reasonably high. Conservative? No one's leading a democratic revolution in Chalion and it's like 1400s Europe in many ways. Sharing Knife is a lordless world where the characters challenge social expectations, though.

[tagmeth]

i think Lloyd Alexander is the one who coined the phrase high fantasy. My definition certainly fits his series. I tend not to read the type of epic fantasy I described either. It makes my skin crawl.

Fantasy vs. epic fantasy vs. high fantasy

[mindstalk]

My main complaint about epic fantasy (aside from the brave young hero set forth on his Destiny with A Sword and a number of sidekicks who may or may not survive the journey) is that they're all plunked down in some sort of pseudo-medieval mess which a) isn't really medieval and b) takes no note of what would in fact happen after 200 years of "nothing going on." David Eddings is the worst of this--thousands and thousands of years of "history" pass and about the only thing that changes technologically is....a certain embroidery design falls out of fashion. It makes me want to pound my head against a wall

Re: Fantasy vs. epic fantasy vs. high fantasy

[mindstalk]

Guild secrecy is actually a true to history element, and served to slow development of crafts and technology. Imperial China fiercely guarded the secrets of its silk production, and there are surviving examples of medieval glass (Chartres blue) and metallurgy (Wootz steel) that we no longer understand how to produce, and cannot duplicate. We no longer know what the Byzantine naval incendiary called "Greek fire" even [i]was[/i].

One of my favorite little bits along the way is where Kallystine is experimenting with a recipe to extend her youth, that Auntie Rawneth had told her about, but not in detail. Her Kendar maid's hand is prematurely aged from it, instead. What the book doesn't say that observant readers will know, is that what Kallystine is attempting to produce is the drug, "dragon's blood", which Taniscent uses to tragic effect at Bortis' urging in God Stalk. The giveaway is that aging is a side effect of the successful potion, and as much of the effect as Kallystine manages to create before her Kendar maid slips behind her

third try

[mindstalk]

Despite my long engagement with fantasy I don't have much attachment to terms like epic or high, but your books certainly seem like they have a lot of epic markers. Jame is not just a Chosen One but an actual messiah. The fate of the world or even multiverse is at stake. There's a dark lord or three (Gerridon, Perimal Darkling, Rawneth). Your map style and many of your names evoke Tolkien, the most obvious Ur-work

Re: third try

[docstrange]

That's excellent. I agree, the arc for Jame and the surrounding context are very much epic in most contexts. When I first read God Stalk aeons ago, I thought it was going to be an isolated fantasy piece or series of unconnected tales akin to a Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser Leiber book. That thought was thankfully overturned by the Dark of the Moon a few years later and it was clearly an epic tale in the making rather than a slice of a character in an epic universe

Re: third try

[docstrange]

..and maybe that is all well drawn out in Le Guin's Earthsea series, all the way through to the last. Sometimes subtle, sometimes anything but subtle. Always epic, even when looking at the micro.

Autographs

[ext_5076146]

Never been to one before. Are there copies of your books to buy and is it just autographs or do you do dedications also. Thanks.

Re: Autographs

[tagmeth]

There may be books in the dealers' room but not at the autograph table. Yes, I also do dedications.