that was much better put than i could have managed. was starting to get ranty at your bit about Unionists being citizens of a foreign country til you added the bit of 'at least the ones who live in Northern Ireland are'. it's true there aren't many from the south, but they do exist. although, as far as i'm aware, the ones at the march were from the north.
but yeah, almost certainly the troublemakers were the republicans as the people who came down on the march got straight back on their bus back to Belfast at the first signs of trouble. (not to mention the hoardes passing by our house were carrying irish flags or wearing celtic jerseys.)
equally, i'd say the same would have happened in reverse had southern republicans gone to a loyalist part of belfast and tried to march.
the guards/government were fools though to say they couldn't have foreseen this! fools to say it, and even bigger fools if they really did think it!
Sorry Pat, but as I dais on Taz'z LJ, I disagree that Unionists are citizens of a foreign country in this instance. If you believe in a United Ireland, and you believe in freedom of speech (and I do), then you cannot but allow Unionists march peacefully in the street, as you would any other Irish group, whether you agreed with them or not. Aspirationally, they are Irish, and if we are ever to move forward, we have to be brave enough to take that step. We were, but sadly there were those who thought it was a good cover excuse for unacceptable behaviour.
In this case I was thinking form an Administrative point if view (If I Ruled The World...), I would have used it as a stick to beat them with, an excuse NOT to let them march here because I could forsee the ensuing problems. See comments below. I do believe in Freedom of Speech...mostly, that is not under contention, but don't believe a foreigner has that right in another country. So you have to accept I was talking form a 'they aren't Irish Citizens' point of view. If we establish that they are Irish Citizens then they would have the right...again see below (althoough I have no idea what I'm going to say there yet :-) ) As for moving forward and being brave enough to take that step...not yet, I don't think as a peoples (on either side of the Border) we are quite mature enough for that.
I agree with all of that. Although I believe Pat's point is that Unionists marching down O'Connel Street are as much looking for trouble as if I was leading a march down in Ajaccio, screaming for Corsica to become a full French colony again. They can, there is such a thing as freedom a speech and all, although doing it in The Republic rather than in Belfast is definitely asking for trouble, and the government should not feel sorry for themselves, since they authorised it.
*shrugs* To be honest the reaction surprised me not at all. I strongly oppose a united Ireland for a variety of reasons. Not the least the discrimination recieved by Protestants in Ireland. The number of protestants in Ireland has dropped since partition. Not the percentage in case anyone cares to suggest the usually larger catholic families, but the actual overall numbers. It's less than one tenth what it was.
The trouble just illustrates why a united ireland would be a really bad situation for a protestant to find theselves. A strong republican movement that would be all concilliatory once they got their united Ireland and a fair deal for all? Looks unlikely to me.
How does a drop in the number of 'Protestants' in the Republic show discrimation? There's also been a large drop in the number of practising Roman Catholics here - clearly not explainable the same way. I'm Church of Ireland, living in Dublin, and have never felt any kind of discrimination. Sure, there used to be some (if not as bad as that experienced by Catholics in the North), but the days when the government was run by the R.C. clerics are long gone.
*shrugs* I'm willing to stand corrected but every other protestant I have know from the Republic, predominantly Dublin area I'll admit, has stated they felt they were given a hard time. Examples that jump to mind, one was from Swords and said that they regularly got things thrown through their window of the their church. He stated that they were regularly bothered around the town. Another girl of my aquaintance went to UCD at first but found the republican student group so unpleasant and her complaints ignored that she transferred university to Queens instead.
Very odd - I've been a parishioner of four C of I churches here, and never even heard anyone speaking of that kind of thing happening in other parishes. And being 'bothered around the town' is confusing, as there's nothing marking you out as being C of I - not as if there are even segregated areas of towns or anything. Unless the C of I school was kind of posh there, and their school uniforms got them in trouble! (There is a bit of that goes on in some parts, but it's nothing to do with religious denomination - just equal-opportunity bullying.)
I went to UCD also - probably a lot longer ago than your friend (being older than most folk around these parts!) and never once came across any republican group in my four years. But - unless they were actively promoting terrorist action - their existence wouldn't be something inappropriate anyway, however much she might not have agreed with their beliefs.
I humbly stand corrected on Article's 2 and 9 of the Constitution and withdraw any comments made about NI people not being citizens of Ireland and therefore not having the right to Free Speech etc.
Then my answer to the Love Ulster march would have been Article 40...
Article 40.6.1° The State guarantees liberty for the exercise of the following rights, subject to public order and morality:
40.6.1.i. The right of the citizens to express freely their convictions and opinions. The education of public opinion being, however, a matter of such grave import to the common good, the State shall endeavour to ensure that organs of public opinion, such as the radio, the press, the cinema, while preserving their rightful liberty of expression, including criticism of Government policy, shall not be used to undermine public order or morality or the authority of the State. The publication or utterance of blasphemous, seditious, or indecent matter is an offence which shall be punishable in accordance with law.40.6.1.ii. The right of the citizens to
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but yeah, almost certainly the troublemakers were the republicans as the people who came down on the march got straight back on their bus back to Belfast at the first signs of trouble. (not to mention the hoardes passing by our house were carrying irish flags or wearing celtic jerseys.)
equally, i'd say the same would have happened in reverse had southern republicans gone to a loyalist part of belfast and tried to march.
the guards/government were fools though to say they couldn't have foreseen this! fools to say it, and even bigger fools if they really did think it!
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I do believe in Freedom of Speech...mostly, that is not under contention, but don't believe a foreigner has that right in another country. So you have to accept I was talking form a 'they aren't Irish Citizens' point of view. If we establish that they are Irish Citizens then they would have the right...again see below (althoough I have no idea what I'm going to say there yet :-) )
As for moving forward and being brave enough to take that step...not yet, I don't think as a peoples (on either side of the Border) we are quite mature enough for that.
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Although I believe Pat's point is that Unionists marching down O'Connel Street are as much looking for trouble as if I was leading a march down in Ajaccio, screaming for Corsica to become a full French colony again.
They can, there is such a thing as freedom a speech and all, although doing it in The Republic rather than in Belfast is definitely asking for trouble, and the government should not feel sorry for themselves, since they authorised it.
Hugs to all,
S.
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The trouble just illustrates why a united ireland would be a really bad situation for a protestant to find theselves. A strong republican movement that would be all concilliatory once they got their united Ireland and a fair deal for all? Looks unlikely to me.
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I went to UCD also - probably a lot longer ago than your friend (being older than most folk around these parts!) and never once came across any republican group in my four years. But - unless they were actively promoting terrorist action - their existence wouldn't be something inappropriate anyway, however much she might not have agreed with their beliefs.
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Then my answer to the Love Ulster march would have been Article 40...
Article 40.6.1° The State guarantees liberty for the exercise of the
following rights, subject to public order and morality:
40.6.1.i. The right of the citizens to express freely their convictions and opinions. The education of public opinion being, however, a matter of such grave import to the common good, the State shall endeavour to ensure that organs of public opinion, such as the radio, the press, the cinema, while preserving their rightful liberty of expression, including criticism of Government policy, shall not be used to undermine public order or morality or the
authority of the State. The publication or utterance of
blasphemous, seditious, or indecent matter is an offence which shall be punishable in accordance with law.40.6.1.ii. The right of the citizens to ( ... )
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