Gaudy Night: chapters 7 & 8

[kalichan]

I am so sorry to be so late and no excuse to offer. *hides face in shame* Mea culpa, as Saint George says when he spills the pastries.

Chapters:  7 & 8

Brief synopsis: Harriet the Ghost Hunter spends a goodly amount of time in the library following the model of many scholars of my acquaintance catching up on sleep researching Sheridan Lefanu and

Comments

[read2day]

"Wtf 1930s Oxford?: What's the difference between a 'scholar' and a 'commoner' besides the short gown? "

A scholar is an undergraduate who has won a scholarship (or, in some colleges, an exhibition = a grant) from the college; usually entitles them to a small amount of money (even smaller in the case of an exhibition) but more to the point, a different gown (longer, and has sleeves - looks more like a graduate's gown than the dishrag that commoners wear). Commoners are all other undergraduates.

http://www.shepherdandwoodward.co.uk/acatalog/Oxford_University_Student_Gowns.html has pictures of the different gowns. These have not changed since the 1930s. They haven't significantly changed since the 1830s ...

[kalichan]

I love that such things as sexual allure are apparently unknown to whoever chooses the models for these gowns.

[read2day]

Shepherd & Woodward ≠ Abercrombie & Fitch! In fact, I want a symbol that means the absolute polar opposite. Or something like that.

[read2day]

Also on de-bagging: trousers were called 'bags', such as 'Oxford bags' - which were extremely wide-legged trousers. http://www.revampvintage.com/eddie.html has some (truly awful) pictures and a suggestion that the term 'bags' came about because the wide legs were used to hide golfing trousers. You may, or may not, choose to believe this.

"hobnailed liver" is slang for cirrhosis of the liver (because it gets covered in lumps). A "recipe for hobnailed liver" means a hangover cure, so something to prevent cirrhosis (more in hope than expectation). "I hope it's nasty" is presumably in the hope that the recollection of having to drink something disgusting will stop Cattermole in her tracks if she toys with the idea of drinking too much again.

[shinyopals]

OMg those trousers are... GLORIOUS. I WANT A PAIR. XD

[kalichan]

ME TOO.

So... when they debag you, do they leave you your golf trousers? ;-)

[penguineggs]

The father of a friend of mine appears in the Union Committee photo from some time in the mid-1920s and is, indeed, actually wearing golfing trousers.

[shinyopals]

I am curious about the punishments.

Gated... confined to your room?
Sent down... expelled?

Those are my guesses. My uni sure as hell had no recourse to punish us for misbehaviour except fines for destroyed uni property! When did that sort of control get phased out?

[penguineggs]

Gated is confined to college, I think.

[littlered2]

Gated is confined to college, and yes, sent down is expelled. (When a person first goes to Oxford, they "go up" to Oxford; when they finish their course they "go down".)

That sort of control hasn't been phased out completely. Curfews and so on are long gone, and getting drunk and acting like a typical student is positively encouraged. We do get fined, though, and not just for destroyed college property, but for breaking the college regulations. However, it is very possible to be sent down (or rather, rusticated - suspended for a year; it comes from the Latin for countryside, because that was where undergraduates' homes were likely to be in relation to Oxford) for not doing well enough academically. At my college, if you are deemed to be doing badly, you are put on academic probation, and if you then get a 2.2 or below in your start-of-term exams (collections) you can be suspended.

Also, there's this, from my college's Handbook:

4. Serious misconduct by a junior member, whether committed within the College or elsewhere, renders the

[shinyopals]

All of that seems pretty fair enough to me, I guess. Well, the 2:2 thing makes me boggle a bit (*scraped her 2:1 by less than a percent*) but Oxford. But my uni had measures (including repeating year for grades being too low) of a similar sort, and one would hope harassment/illegal stuff/etc would get some sort of punishment.

The thought of being punished for drunkenness and gatecrashing parties though... LOL.

[shinyopals]

Also... Saint George? AMAZING.

I don't think there is any section of any book that makes me laugh quite so hard every time I read as Saint George innocently going on about Viennese singers and how NOBODY COULD REFUSE UNCLE PETER while Harriet is just standing there and probably desperately trying to keep a straight face. And then his horror when he realises who Harriet is. ♥

[penguineggs]

It is absolutely splendid, yes. Also "I've inherited my uncle's tongue and my mother's want of tact" is, both, accurate and tactless.

[nineveh_uk]

I know we can imagine what Helen said about Harriet, but I do wish that Sayers had shown us a little.

[nineveh_uk]

I adore the Saint-George intro, and the thought of his series of sudden realisations at the extent to which he has put his foot in it. Though the fact that he then attempts to use Harriet to his financial advantage (pre-crash) doesn't say much for his character - though the fact H. sees through it may say something about hers.

[littlered2]

One interesting point in the scene in which Harriet has coffee with the group of Third Years is the student (whose name, annoyingly, I cannot remember, and I don't have my book on me) who mentions putting her fiance off a rival (Miss Flaxman?) by telling him that "she was the Templeton Scholar and the world's heavyweight in the way of learning. That put him off". She also says that if she gets a First (as her friends believe she assuredly will) she will "make him believe that I only did it by looking fragile and pathetic at the viva". The degree to which young women who appear confident in all other respects feel the need to hide their intelligence from men is clearly a considerable one; this incident contrasts very strikingly with Harriet's relationship with Peter, in which neither attempt to conceal their intelligence from the other, and nor is there any suggestion that they would appreciate the other doing so.

[azdak]

this incident contrasts very strikingly with Harriet's relationship with Peter, in which neither attempt to conceal their intelligence from the other, and nor is there any suggestion that they would appreciate the other doing so.

But - and it's a big but - I get the distinct impression that this is only possible because Peter's intellect is in fact superior to Harriet's. If she were cleverer than him the kind of relationship they have wouldn't be possible - not because Peter would want her to pretend to be less bright, but because the ultimate solution to the problem GN poses of "How can the superior woman be happy in marriage?" is pretty clearly "Only by finding a man even more superior". In GN, Peter pretty much wipes the floor with Harriet on every level, including solving HER mystery and finishing HER poem. Peter's masculine superiority isn't threatened by Harriet's brains because he's got even more of them than she has.

[littlered2]

That is an excellent (and depressing) point; I think I'm so caught up in thinking about my looming Finals that I was just thinking of intelligence in terms of degree classifications (and Harriet and Peter both got Firsts, so no problem there!). I think I need to get out of Oxford for a while.

Speaking of Peter finishing Harriet's poem, I don't know how she managed to restrain herself from killing him. I would have been furious beyond belief.

[littlered2]

(Re. "finding a man even more superior", I just remember that we also see Peter providing the perfect suggestion to solve Harriet's problems with Death 'Twixt Wind and Water, arguably the worst offence of all; solving mysteries is his job (of sorts), after all, so I can cope with him solving the mystery at Shrewsbury, but novel-writing is Harriet's.