Comments | the_magician: Ambiguity!

the_magician

Ambiguity!

Dec 07, 2006 17:33

Comments 32

artela December 7 2006, 17:48:22 UTC

And what do they mean by "active"? Has been to conventions? Has been in newsgroups? Has been in online fora? And does Pratchett conventioning count even if he's only written a small amount of science fiction?

Good points! the_magician December 7 2006, 18:02:07 UTC

I'd certainly hope Pratchett conventioning should count ... but what if your "fannish activity" has been exclusively writing Discworld fanfic (or Harry Potter slash?) does that count as active ... I really don't know!

bugshaw December 7 2006, 17:56:31 UTC

How would you have worded the rules? They are based on the current TAFF and GUFF rules.

the_magician December 7 2006, 18:11:58 UTC

Does it matter how I'd have done it? I believe we're committed to using these ones now so some clarification of what is intended is probably in order. Particularly since I don't actually know what was intended, it would make it a total guess on my part how they should be reworded ( ... )

bugshaw December 7 2006, 18:24:28 UTC

Does it matter how I'd have done it?
No, but if you're giving the matter some thought it would be useful to have your suggestions to hand should it become appropriate to rewrite the TAFF rules ;-)

Those are helpful ideas, but I might disagree with some of them... The "include the name of a fan known to the administrators who can vouch for you" is a useful catch-all. And you can e-mail the administrators before voting if you wish to clarify your eligibility.

Grin! the_magician December 7 2006, 18:34:05 UTC

Good, I was hoping I wasn't treading on anyone's toes. :-)

I've posted the quotes from the TAFF and GUFF rules as a separate reply, but basically they already include the "include the name of a fan to vouch for you" rule, they specify the date of fannish activity as "prior to" a date rather than "since" and they put no geographical limitation on the TAFF and GUFF voters, and it's those changes that have caused the potential ambiguities.

I'll have another look at the TAFF rules sometime (who knows, I may run again one day!) and see if there's anything I can suggest (I'm not a rules lawyer, nor do I play one on TV!)

Thread 8

luckykaa December 7 2006, 18:04:24 UTC

And this is why mathmeticians and computer programmers care so much about precedence. My interpretation is:

A) If you were at Interaction, and are based in Europe, you can vote.
B) If you have been active in fandom on any date in 2005 or 2006 and you're based in Europe, you can vote.

Otherwise you can't vote.

So that answers a few of them
1. No.
2. If you're based in Europe
3. Yes.
4. Only if you went to Interaction.
5. This is a tricky one. What does "Europe" mean.
6. A tricky one. Technically based on the above, I guess the answer would be yes. However, I'd say you'd have to be active in European fandom to keep within the spirit of the rules.

Not quite sure what "active in fandom" means in this situaton.

the_magician December 7 2006, 18:17:56 UTC

1. but doesn't "and" bind tighter than or, so it becomes

[science fiction fan] and [based in Europe] and [active in fandom since 1 January 2005] OR [member of Interaction]

That was certainly my first reading (and depends on both the meaning of "and/or" and how it distributes [science fiction fan] and [based in Europe]) but I beileve your interpretation is what the LFF administrators intended.

Hence the ambiguity.

Otherwise I think you and I agree on our interpretations of the other 5 questions!

luckykaa December 7 2006, 20:02:47 UTC

Never could remember the precedence of the boolean operators. My code is a mass of nested if statements.

Yes. Now I come to think of it, my take doesn't make sense. Being an Interaction member is active in fandom after all. Since the TAFF rules say "prior to" rather than since, I'd imagine this is what they mean, and Interaction is an exception to that rule.

The reason I think that the European requirement applies is simply the repetition of the word "who"

So I'll go for [science fiction fan] and [based in Europe] and [[active in fandom since prior 1 January 2005] OR [member of Interaction]]

alexmc December 7 2006, 18:08:15 UTC

> but currently live in Turkey, can you vote?

Of course not. They dont know about democracy in them backwaters....

the_magician December 7 2006, 18:12:30 UTC

LOL!

bellinghman December 7 2006, 18:27:22 UTC

Voting is open to any science fiction fan based in Europe who has been active in fandom since 1 January 2005 and/or who was a member of Interaction, and who contributes at least £3 or 5 euros to the fund alongside their vote.

Hmm, careful use of commas and positioning there.

Subject ((CondA or CondB) and CondC)

Subject => 'any science fiction fan based in Europe'

CondA => 'who has been active in fandom since 1 January 2005'

CondB => 'who was a member of Interaction'

CondC => 'who contributes at least £3 or 5 euros to the fund alongside their vote'

The comma is vital - it prevents it being interpreted as (CondA or (CondB and CondC))

1) this depends on how you evaluate the "and/or" and what it applies to.

The first 'who' appears after the 'science fiction fan based in Europe', so is a modifier to that. It would seem reasonable to assume that all subsequent 'who's are applied to the same subject as the first. Otherwise, you might as well apply them to Santa Claus.

So, unless you are based in Europe, you can't vote.

2 ( ... )

the_magician December 7 2006, 18:43:17 UTC

You're not parsing it fully (perhaps!)

Subject ((CondA or CondB) and CondC)

Subject => 'any science fiction fan'

CondD => 'based in Europe'

CondA => 'who has been active in fandom since 1 January 2005'

CondB => 'who was a member of Interaction'

CondC => 'who contributes at least £3 or 5 euros to the fund alongside their vote'

It's possible to read the original as

Voting is open to any science fiction fan ([based in Europe] and [who has been active in fandom since 1 January 2005]) and/or ([who was a member of Interaction] ( and implied from Interaction's dates) [which makes them active in fandom since 1 January 2005]))

which indeed is how I read it.

the_magician December 7 2006, 18:51:26 UTC

In fact, I'd say "member of Interaction" implies "SF fan", "active in fandom" and "active since January 1st 2005".

So

CondA => 'who has been active in fandom since 1 January 2005'

CondB => 'who was a member of Interaction'

CondC => 'who contributes at least £3 or 5 euros to the fund alongside their vote'

CondD => 'based in Europe'

CondE => 'any science fiction fan''

CondB implies CondE
CondB implies CondA (my assertion at least)

CondC is distributed across and so we can ignore it for the purposes of this discussion.

"Voting is open to any science fiction fan based in Europe who has been active in fandom since 1 January 2005 and/or who was a member of Interaction"

Comes down to whether you decide whether "based in Europe" is strongly bound to "any science fiction fan" or whether it is another modifier like "who has been active in fandom".

bellinghman December 7 2006, 21:39:34 UTC

IMO, it's strongly bound, as can be told by the fact it is then followed by 3 'who' phrases.

BTW - are you sure you want to raise a USAnian contingent? I only mention this as amongst others, you're competing against NoJay 'I almost live in Atlanta' Sneddon.

(On the other hand, so far as fund raising is concerned, the mor the merrier.)

Thread 6