Controversy...

[thebiblicalway]

:) BTW, I’d also like to meet people who disagree with me. I’m all for healthy, civilized debates--mostly Biblically-centered debates. Controversy is fine, in my opinion, as long as it doesn’t become a stumbling block or point of unnecessary division

Comments

[heart2pen]

ouch. :P

Actually it's not that much of a problem for me. Once I get down to answering and asking the questions in the Calvinism debate on my LJ, you're welcome to join in and help along. :)

I'm not closed to the idea, but I have a lot of questions about it. If I go totally by logic, I find myself seeing calvinism. But when I get there and look back, I say, "But that's not God!" God doesn't make people sin, at least He said He doesn't. :)

Anyways, you sound like you're ready for a debate. I don't mind them at all. :)

[thebiblicalway]

Always ready for one. But, please, understand that I want to encourage and--hopefully--graciously point out what I believe is the truth. I hope no one will be afraid to offend me; I don't offend easily (well, you can be the judge of that). Frankness is preferred to shallow equivocation.

Anyway, heart2pen, I think you bring up an old straw man argument (though I'm sure you didn't intend to) that doesn't hold water, as hopefully I can show in time. Calvinism, if properly understood, presents man as willfully disobedient and sinful. God certainly does not cause people to sin; rather, He sovereignly allows people to sin, and go their own destructive way--except when He shows grace. Natural man is “under the influence” of his own depraved nature and unwilling to change. (To say, “What if he wanted to repent without God's grace?” is to ask the absurd, because man will never want to change on his own.)

[heart2pen]

Call me David. :)

See, I don't have any problem at all with that part of Calvinism. It's the part of God proactively predistinating somebody to sin and death, proactively predestining sin itself to the world, that really bothers me. I totally agree with what you said there. But it's just, can God plan evil and still have the character that he has revealed to us? That's really the cog in my understanding of calvinism right now. Maybe you could help me out?

I need to go for a little, otherwise I'd make a longer post here. But I'm looking forwards to hearing what you have to say. It's definitely an interest of mine. :)

Ah, well, I can't ever recall getting offended in a debate. :) I definitely don't have the least problem in furthering my understanding here. Go right ahead! :)

[thebiblicalway]

Whoa, whoa! :) Let’s talk about this “proactive predestination” to sin. First, I’m not sure what you mean by proactive. As opposed to? Would passive equate to allowing and proactive to affecting, in your mind? (First, though, let me ditch the Calvinism title. I’m not especially fond of titles. I want to speak about what the Bible says, not what Calvinism says, if you get my meaning

[heart2pen]

In other words, is it possible for God to allow human actions without participating in those actions?

Absolutely, but what I've read, and heard of Calvinism, is that not only is God allowing, but he is deciding, acting, and bringing to pass every thing that happens. Including deciding beforehand who is going to be saved and who he's not going to save. I'd say this is what bothers me most because I can't see any or hardly any Biblical support for it. Maybe you could expound a little bit more on what you believe on this subject?

One last thing, though, David, you don’t have to fully understand the sovereignty of God to believe it.

Um, well I do.

Trust in what the Bible says; God is absolutely sovereign (even in salvation), yet man is fully responsible and culpable of his sins. This implies that man is willfully sinful and not compelled by God to sin.

Yes, but that's only half. The other half is 'take head what type of ground you are' when you really can't affect what type of ground you are. How do you explain commands like that?

[redbandanna]

Hi Joel. =)

I'm Charity. I don't know if Missy has mentioned me before, but welcome to LJ!

[thebiblicalway]

Thank you for the welcome! It's nice to meet you, Charity. Yes, Missy has talked briefly about various friends, including you. She included you on a list of about 25 people I should add to my friends list, complete with little one line descriptions (most saying "Calvinist" :).

I hear you're from a big home schooling family. That's awesome! We need more of those...

[yearningforgod]

Haha, that has me curious what she might have said about me!! :D

[thebiblicalway]

:) Curiosity killed the cat, ya know...

Missy said you were a Canadian named Melissa, and that you are a Calvinist. Also, she mentioned that you believe in the cessation of true churches. She told me a couple other things, that I don’t remember. It’s been a while.