ten pages of intellect...or something like that
BroknSnt (2:40:39 PM): u know a book called mere christianity?
Lilehfehce (2:41:32 PM): nope
BroknSnt (2:42:33 PM): its this book by this british guy named cs lewis
Lilehfehce (2:42:54 PM): yeah, i' know cs lewis
BroknSnt (2:43:05 PM): and its basically logically explaining the christian faith
Lilehfehce (2:43:15 PM): they had a show about him and freud and their views on christianity
BroknSnt (2:43:17 PM): and it answers a lot of my questions
Lilehfehce (2:43:18 PM): i started watching it and taking notes and stuff, but i never finished it
BroknSnt (2:43:21 PM): -_-;;
Lilehfehce (2:43:27 PM): kewl, that sounds interesting
BroknSnt (2:43:30 PM): but i dunno...i feel a lil bit of faith growing in me
Lilehfehce (2:43:37 PM): :D
BroknSnt (2:43:42 PM): but i just need to make sure that im not being brainwashed
BroknSnt (2:43:49 PM): me going to a christian school and all
BroknSnt (2:43:51 PM): r u a christian kat?
Lilehfehce (2:45:29 PM): technically, i was christened early in life, but i don't follow any kind of dogma or go to church regularly or concretely subscribe to any of the beliefs
Lilehfehce (2:46:10 PM): although with the way i think, i might as well be a christian. you just have to twist a whole lot of meanings around
BroknSnt (2:46:16 PM): ?
BroknSnt (2:46:19 PM): what do u mean
Lilehfehce (2:47:17 PM): take the biggest pillar of the christian faith: you must believe that jesus is your saviour and whatnot, or else you'll go to hell. jesus was a man sent by god to die for our sins
BroknSnt (2:48:17 PM): yes
Lilehfehce (2:48:19 PM): anyone could have been a man sent by god to die for our sins. really, it's all psyhcological. there are millions of other religions out there going on at the same time. in my opinion, jesus was just as great as any other man, but he was really just a focal point to get some people going in the right direction, because nothing else worked for them
Lilehfehce (2:48:46 PM): so it's not a bad thing, but it's not the only good thing to follow jesus
BroknSnt (2:48:53 PM): but what if he was more than that?
BroknSnt (2:49:00 PM): what if he really was what he was saying
Lilehfehce (2:49:28 PM): esentially he was, in my opinion, which is what i'm saying
BroknSnt (2:49:35 PM): no i mean
BroknSnt (2:49:42 PM): what if he truly is the only way to God?
Lilehfehce (2:49:55 PM): but basically, i think jesus wasn't a specific entity, to believe in *him* was'nt necessarily to just believe in him, as the man
BroknSnt (2:50:10 PM): im not getting u here
Lilehfehce (2:50:32 PM): more of a wake up call as a means for people who didn't have anything to believe in to follow
Lilehfehce (2:50:39 PM): take the eastern faiths, for example
Lilehfehce (2:50:52 PM): basically every faith has similar concepts about it
BroknSnt (2:51:13 PM): ur basically saying he was a good moral teacher
Lilehfehce (2:51:40 PM): perhaps there were some people who didnt *have* a faith, or their faith just wasn't strong enough, so jesus came along to establish it anew
Lilehfehce (2:52:05 PM): yes, but also someone to personalise a universal faith for a group of people, christians
Lilehfehce (2:52:49 PM): like, when you go to school you have certain teachers. their way isn't the only one, but they tell you if you don't do this stuff they show you, or follow their principles, then you won't achieve such and such
Lilehfehce (2:53:08 PM): of course, this might be true, but you could also probably achieve similar results with someone else
BroknSnt (2:53:13 PM): but jesus said he was the only path to God
BroknSnt (2:53:18 PM): he declared himself the son of God
BroknSnt (2:53:31 PM): he was either crazy or what he said he was
Lilehfehce (2:54:05 PM): yes, but when he said he was the only path to god, what did he mean by it?
BroknSnt (2:54:41 PM): according to the christian doctrine
BroknSnt (2:54:54 PM): that only the faith that christ was the lord God and was raised from the dead
BroknSnt (2:55:09 PM): can give a man his entrance ticket to heaven
Lilehfehce (2:55:55 PM): but then that can still be reduced to a principle, or Truth
Lilehfehce (2:56:04 PM): that there is something so sublime that anything can happen
BroknSnt (2:56:11 PM): kat
BroknSnt (2:56:13 PM): in ur opinion
BroknSnt (2:56:16 PM): how is our salvation earned?
BroknSnt (2:56:24 PM): if u even believe in a salvation
Lilehfehce (2:57:01 PM): i truly don't believe in the generic type of salvation that most people tout, in all honesty
Lilehfehce (2:57:22 PM): my beliefs are more buddhist, i think. at least that's the best way i can describe them
BroknSnt (2:57:29 PM): do u believe in God?
Lilehfehce (2:57:37 PM): i suppose i believe in enlightenment
Lilehfehce (2:57:43 PM): and yes, some form of god
Lilehfehce (2:57:52 PM): but not necessarily the one that everyone else protrays
BroknSnt (2:58:01 PM): God as the creator?
Lilehfehce (2:58:03 PM): although at the same time i believe that all of those others exist as well
Lilehfehce (2:58:20 PM): the world is what you make it, so to speak, and then at the same time it isnt
Lilehfehce (2:58:27 PM): god as the infinite truth
Lilehfehce (2:58:50 PM): if there was ever a creator, then i think that's where the system is flawed from the start
Lilehfehce (2:59:01 PM): because that would require a creator of the creator
Lilehfehce (2:59:20 PM): and etc., which would make each one less than omnipotent
Lilehfehce (2:59:43 PM): so for me, God is the Truth, or the Om
BroknSnt (3:00:19 PM): so u dont see god as a conscious being
Lilehfehce (3:00:56 PM): not in the sense of flesh and bone, of course not
Lilehfehce (3:01:07 PM): but in essence, the god i believe in *is* consciousness
Lilehfehce (3:01:15 PM): so to speak
Lilehfehce (3:01:28 PM): although it's difficult to describe something so sublime and really make any sense
BroknSnt (3:01:35 PM): true
BroknSnt (3:01:41 PM): im getting u
BroknSnt (3:01:44 PM): but this is difficult
BroknSnt (3:01:46 PM): cuz ur not questioning me
BroknSnt (3:01:52 PM): ur just simply stating what u believe
BroknSnt (3:01:57 PM): and i cant tell u where God came from or anything
BroknSnt (3:02:07 PM): other words...ur not defeating me, but ur frustrating me
BroknSnt (3:02:07 PM): lol
Lilehfehce (3:02:13 PM): well, what appeals to you so much about christianity?
BroknSnt (3:03:22 PM): well
BroknSnt (3:03:26 PM): i believe theres a God
BroknSnt (3:03:29 PM): who created this universe
BroknSnt (3:03:39 PM): where did the creator come from? no lo se
BroknSnt (3:03:53 PM): need i explain y i believe theres a god?
Lilehfehce (3:04:38 PM): but do you believe in a finite existence?
Lilehfehce (3:04:49 PM): geese oh man, you should have been in TOK
BroknSnt (3:04:51 PM): u mean an infinite existence?
BroknSnt (3:04:56 PM): hah seriously
Lilehfehce (3:06:54 PM): no, i mean finite
Lilehfehce (3:07:07 PM): as in with a beginning and an end
BroknSnt (3:08:11 PM): for whom?
BroknSnt (3:08:14 PM): God?
BroknSnt (3:08:16 PM): or the universe?
Lilehfehce (3:08:51 PM): both
BroknSnt (3:09:17 PM): the universe as it is should be finite
BroknSnt (3:09:22 PM): God...he better be infinite
BroknSnt (3:09:23 PM): ^_^
Lilehfehce (3:10:16 PM): hehe
Lilehfehce (3:10:25 PM): yeah, that's my point
BroknSnt (3:11:13 PM): but heres the thing
BroknSnt (3:11:17 PM): we cannot possibly grasp God
BroknSnt (3:11:22 PM): whether finite of infinite
BroknSnt (3:11:28 PM): he is BEYOND our understanding u see
BroknSnt (3:11:42 PM): there can only be a straight line in first dimension
BroknSnt (3:11:52 PM): and only a square in second dimension
BroknSnt (3:11:58 PM): if everything was flat
BroknSnt (3:12:09 PM): something 3D is a concept that nothing can represent in 2D
BroknSnt (3:12:12 PM): do u see what im saying?
Lilehfehce (3:12:23 PM): but that's where enlightenment comes in
BroknSnt (3:13:01 PM): nivana
BroknSnt (3:13:03 PM): so to speak
BroknSnt (3:13:04 PM): ur saying
Lilehfehce (3:14:48 PM): it depends. in my believe, once someone is enlightened, basically, their soul or energies or whatever rejoins the Truth from which they came (with capitalised words being interchangable, here), unless they willingly stay behind to help others attain enlightenment, and then those souls can be recycled so to speak
Lilehfehce (3:14:55 PM): neverendingly
BroknSnt (3:15:19 PM): wheel of life
Lilehfehce (3:15:19 PM): there's a word for someone who stays behind in sanskrit, but i've forgotten it
BroknSnt (3:15:40 PM): kat
BroknSnt (3:15:45 PM): do u think the universe as it is came by chance?
Lilehfehce (3:18:00 PM): no, but then neither do i think there was a specific reason for which it came about. it was almost certainly a result of a previous universe, but then, why did that one come about?
BroknSnt (3:18:49 PM): y do u say it was almost certainly a result of a previous universe?
Lilehfehce (3:19:00 PM): god is infinite, and he created the universe, so why not several others
Lilehfehce (3:19:32 PM): because i'm not the holder of the tome of knowledge =P
Lilehfehce (3:19:49 PM): and also because i think everything has an impact on the motion of everything else
BroknSnt (3:20:09 PM): well
Lilehfehce (3:20:12 PM): so logically a previous universe's existence would have impacted the creation of another one, just by being there
BroknSnt (3:20:13 PM): so u do believe it was created
Lilehfehce (3:21:09 PM): of course, everything had to have come into being at some point, theoretically, but that's just the physical universe we live in
BroknSnt (3:21:28 PM): k k
BroknSnt (3:21:29 PM): now
BroknSnt (3:21:43 PM): we have established SOME kind of beginning and SOME kind of force behind it
BroknSnt (3:21:44 PM): right
BroknSnt (3:21:46 PM): some creator
BroknSnt (3:21:59 PM): (and im speaking largely from the viewpoint of this book)
Lilehfehce (3:22:21 PM): not really
Lilehfehce (3:22:43 PM): that still doesnt change my belief that the capitalised Universe is infinite
BroknSnt (3:23:03 PM): i'll quickly brb kat, keep talking
Lilehfehce (3:23:44 PM): i mean, of course, the physical universe, just as the galaxy, that we live in, is probably finite because it is made at least partly of something that isn't sublime, namely atoms and whatnot. of course, i could be wrong, but most signs point to it being finite
Lilehfehce (3:24:03 PM): but the force behind it, i think, is infinite, at least something along the line has to be
Lilehfehce (3:24:10 PM): and that's what i think god is
BroknSnt (3:25:56 PM): exactly
BroknSnt (3:26:20 PM): now this is directly from the book
BroknSnt (3:26:29 PM): from the universe
BroknSnt (3:26:33 PM): we can learn 2 things about the force
BroknSnt (3:26:37 PM): the creator, lets say
BroknSnt (3:27:01 PM): 1. hes one hell of an artist
BroknSnt (3:27:06 PM): 2. and hes cruel and terrifying
BroknSnt (3:27:13 PM): for the universe is beautiful but dangerous
BroknSnt (3:27:24 PM): right?
Lilehfehce (3:27:45 PM): well, this is only one universe
Lilehfehce (3:27:57 PM): suppose out of the infinite other universes all of our souls lived in sublimity?
BroknSnt (3:28:05 PM): irrelevant
BroknSnt (3:28:10 PM): what good does that do for us?
BroknSnt (3:28:23 PM): for US
BroknSnt (3:28:37 PM): we live in a beautiful and dangerous universe full of pain, no?
Lilehfehce (3:28:37 PM): it would help us look at the big picture
Lilehfehce (3:28:52 PM): heaven is the big picture, isnt it?
BroknSnt (3:29:01 PM): lets leave heaven out of this for a while
Lilehfehce (3:29:22 PM): yes, but my point is, religion helps us transcend that, so the point in considering past universes would be to try and fathom that
BroknSnt (3:29:28 PM): ya
Lilehfehce (3:29:31 PM): dude, that's partly what the conversation started because of!
BroknSnt (3:29:32 PM): but im not even touching religion
BroknSnt (3:29:45 PM): im just simply talking about god
Lilehfehce (3:29:52 PM): alright then, so now what's the new focus
BroknSnt (3:30:11 PM): alright
BroknSnt (3:30:13 PM): heres my view on God
BroknSnt (3:30:16 PM): and his existence
BroknSnt (3:30:24 PM): the universe couldnt have just appeared by chance
BroknSnt (3:30:29 PM): so there is a creator
BroknSnt (3:30:41 PM): who thru his creation seems beautifully artistic yet terrifying
BroknSnt (3:31:02 PM): but theres another thing that shows him to us
BroknSnt (3:31:06 PM): and that is ourselves
BroknSnt (3:31:15 PM): we all have a natural conscience...this law of morality
BroknSnt (3:31:18 PM): that we're all born with
BroknSnt (3:31:48 PM): that r not part of our instincts
BroknSnt (3:32:03 PM): nor r they always essential to our survival
BroknSnt (3:32:15 PM): necessarily
Lilehfehce (3:32:30 PM): how do you know we all have a sense of morality?
BroknSnt (3:32:39 PM): listen to any 2 ppl fighting
BroknSnt (3:32:41 PM): or quarreling
BroknSnt (3:32:48 PM): "u played unfair" "u broke a promise"
BroknSnt (3:32:53 PM): everyone tries to prove that they're right
BroknSnt (3:33:01 PM): rarely does anyone go "the hell with ur standards"
Lilehfehce (3:33:25 PM): how does that prove morality?
BroknSnt (3:33:39 PM): kat
BroknSnt (3:33:43 PM): do u think we're all born evil?
Lilehfehce (3:34:21 PM): of course not, but that doesnt necessarily mean we're born with a sense of morality
Lilehfehce (3:34:42 PM): which is actually what i meant, how do you know we don't learn morality
BroknSnt (3:35:16 PM): because we have a natural sense of compassion and justice
BroknSnt (3:35:32 PM): damn...he talked about morality not being learned
BroknSnt (3:35:35 PM): but i forget what he said
Lilehfehce (3:36:06 PM): how do you know it's not a survival instinct expressing itself in a devious way?
BroknSnt (3:36:19 PM): cuz
BroknSnt (3:36:24 PM): if we see someone in danger
BroknSnt (3:36:34 PM): our natural instinct is to run away for saftey
Lilehfehce (3:36:36 PM): not to say that i *do* believe we're not born with morality, just because i'm interested in the answers
BroknSnt (3:36:49 PM): but our morality tells us taht we should brave it and help
BroknSnt (3:36:50 PM): u see
Lilehfehce (3:37:20 PM): but not always, as in when the one in danger is someone we despise
BroknSnt (3:37:23 PM): we're taking it for granted that since becuz we learned it from parents and teachers, its a human invention
Lilehfehce (3:37:30 PM): it depends on how developped a person is
BroknSnt (3:37:32 PM): k
BroknSnt (3:37:35 PM): look at it this way
BroknSnt (3:37:42 PM): we all learn the multiplication table at school
Lilehfehce (3:37:42 PM): and not everyone would helps that person
Lilehfehce (3:37:47 PM): help*
BroknSnt (3:38:00 PM): does that make it a human invention? no, 2x2 is always gonna be 4, and 9x 7 is always gonna 63
BroknSnt (3:38:08 PM): its not something we invented
BroknSnt (3:38:09 PM): its how it is
Lilehfehce (3:38:36 PM): well, that depends on how you see it
BroknSnt (3:38:49 PM): we're not talking about the technical linguistics
BroknSnt (3:39:21 PM): a quantity we call 9 times another quantity we call 7 will always be a quantity we call 63
BroknSnt (3:39:36 PM): doesnt matter what we name the quantities, the quantities themselves will be the same
BroknSnt (3:39:37 PM): u see?
Lilehfehce (3:40:33 PM): goddamn, i can go on about something as abstract as religion, but then when you bring math into it, i've really got to think. curses!
BroknSnt (3:40:40 PM): lol
BroknSnt (3:40:54 PM): lol cuz math is my homefield, and its something concrete
BroknSnt (3:40:57 PM): yet it can connect
Lilehfehce (3:41:18 PM): anywho, enough math for now...my point is just that even if someone *does* help someone else in danger, is it really an inbred sense of morality?
Lilehfehce (3:41:30 PM): actually, when you think of it, math is quite abstract
BroknSnt (3:41:35 PM): that was just an example
Lilehfehce (3:41:37 PM): that's what was getting to me
BroknSnt (3:41:38 PM): all im sayingis
BroknSnt (3:41:47 PM): we all do have an inborn sense of conscience
BroknSnt (3:41:51 PM): that cannot be physically explained
Lilehfehce (3:42:44 PM): and that's what i'm trying to get at: i think it *can* be physically explained
Lilehfehce (3:43:14 PM): here, i'll take the freudian side, the 'anti-god' even though i've already demonstrated my belief in such a being, albeit an unorthodoxed belief
Lilehfehce (3:45:23 PM): let's say it was your friend who was in danger, say, about to be crushed by an oncoming wave because they had their ankle caught in a tree root. you're instincts would probably tell you to run, but you don't and you risk your life to save this friend. why? one answer might be that you've become so attached to this friend that you've conditioned yourself to feel as if they are a natural part of your life, that if they are gone, part of you will die.
BroknSnt (3:45:58 PM): no
BroknSnt (3:46:02 PM): but even if it was a total stranger
Lilehfehce (3:46:09 PM): instinct would call on you to prevent yourself from dying, correct? so naturally, if you've conditioned yourself to believe that you'll 'die' if your friend does, wouldn't your instinct tell you to save that friend?
BroknSnt (3:46:25 PM): ur basically saying that our conscience is just another instinct no?
Lilehfehce (3:46:41 PM): in that case, you'd probably be someone who had conditioned themself to love all life as a part of your own
Lilehfehce (3:46:53 PM): it can be explained as such, at least
BroknSnt (3:46:58 PM): but that cant be so
BroknSnt (3:47:09 PM): cuz often conscience is what dictates us when 2 instincts clash
Lilehfehce (3:47:16 PM): why not?
Lilehfehce (3:47:31 PM): example?
BroknSnt (3:47:34 PM): if it dictates, then it itself cannot be an instinct
BroknSnt (3:47:42 PM): well, lets stick with the helping someone scenario
BroknSnt (3:47:44 PM): a stranger
BroknSnt (3:47:57 PM): ur individual survival instinct would tell u to get the hell away to safety
Lilehfehce (3:48:07 PM): why couldnt an instinct contradict another?
BroknSnt (3:48:07 PM): ur group survival instinct would tell u to go save the person
BroknSnt (3:48:25 PM): what overcomes the fear and dictates to follow the latter is the conscience
Lilehfehce (3:49:01 PM): possibly because, for humans, we have found that survival as a group is much more efficient
BroknSnt (3:49:18 PM): not necessarily
Lilehfehce (3:49:19 PM): and there are also several other factors that you can throw in
BroknSnt (3:49:45 PM): but even besides this example
BroknSnt (3:49:51 PM): we're angered of horrified at atrocities
BroknSnt (3:50:01 PM): and "feel fuzzy" with kind acts
Lilehfehce (3:50:14 PM): but take a mother animal eating her children. she's born with the instinct to protect her progeny, but she's also born with the instinct to save herself
Lilehfehce (3:50:36 PM): so why would choosing one instinct over another be considered choosing a moral?
BroknSnt (3:50:45 PM): but thast an animal
BroknSnt (3:50:50 PM): we have a sense of right and wrong
BroknSnt (3:50:53 PM): thats what make us human
Lilehfehce (3:51:07 PM): alright, i'm not saying that we're not born with morals, or we are, but the matter should be considered
Lilehfehce (3:51:19 PM): and i think that's also a valid point
BroknSnt (3:51:21 PM): well, i am saying we are
Lilehfehce (3:51:31 PM): but what i do believe in is a progression of the spirit
BroknSnt (3:51:38 PM): (lol he went over this thru FIVE chapters, so i cant really express it so concisely)
Lilehfehce (3:51:47 PM): i know you've heard of karma
BroknSnt (3:51:50 PM): ya
BroknSnt (3:51:57 PM): of course
Lilehfehce (3:52:39 PM): so, if we're born into this world with only a piece of the soul we came from, we're obviously going to want to get back to that entire soul to be complete
Lilehfehce (3:53:18 PM): so karma allows us to work through that, but when we're physically born, depending on what stage of development we're at, we may not be aware of as much as others
Lilehfehce (3:53:46 PM): animals, for example, you say aren't born with 'morals'. well, in my opinion, they're part of the collective soul as well, but lower down
Lilehfehce (3:54:18 PM): so if you were born a human, as a younger soul, wouldn't it be possible that you might not have been born with a 'moral sense'?
Lilehfehce (3:55:16 PM): or that if you were, you might not be conscious of it early on in life?
BroknSnt (3:55:19 PM): its possible
BroknSnt (3:55:23 PM): but from what i see
BroknSnt (3:55:24 PM): and read
BroknSnt (3:55:25 PM): and feel
BroknSnt (3:55:32 PM): we all have a natural inborn sense of right and wrong
Lilehfehce (3:55:40 PM): either way, morality isn't necessarily what's going to get you anywhere
BroknSnt (3:55:46 PM): oh but it will
BroknSnt (3:55:49 PM): if u let me finish my point
BroknSnt (3:56:44 PM): there is SOME kind of standard of right and wrong
BroknSnt (3:56:48 PM): that we're all appealing to
BroknSnt (3:56:56 PM): do u not agree?
Lilehfehce (3:57:16 PM): in a sense, yes
BroknSnt (3:57:19 PM): k
BroknSnt (3:57:24 PM): and since its always been there
BroknSnt (3:57:27 PM): not invented by men
BroknSnt (3:57:31 PM): it must be something beyond
BroknSnt (3:57:43 PM): this is where God comes in and fits the puzzle
BroknSnt (3:57:53 PM): the creator of the universe and, consequently, us
BroknSnt (3:58:00 PM): is someone that loves goodness
BroknSnt (3:58:08 PM): which is the ultimate relief and ultimate horror at the same time
BroknSnt (3:58:26 PM): it is a relief that there is an absolute goodness behind the machinaries of the universe
BroknSnt (3:58:36 PM): and horror because we all fail to keep up the moral law
Lilehfehce (3:58:37 PM): well in my opinion, god *is* 'goodness'
BroknSnt (3:59:38 PM): exactly
BroknSnt (3:59:39 PM): and we
BroknSnt (3:59:40 PM): are not
Lilehfehce (4:00:30 PM): so then in your opinion, how is one 'supposed' to act while on earth
BroknSnt (4:01:12 PM): hah, dont get me started
BroknSnt (4:01:27 PM): but u dont really need me to answer that question for u, do u?
BroknSnt (4:01:38 PM): we all are expected to be "just" "kind" "selfless" etc etc etc
BroknSnt (4:01:41 PM): the list goes on
Lilehfehce (4:02:06 PM): well, you *were* the one who asked people to question and prod you =P
BroknSnt (4:02:19 PM): lol
BroknSnt (4:02:28 PM): i wonder what sade thinks about all this
Lilehfehce (4:02:31 PM): but why do we need to do those things, in your opinion?
BroknSnt (4:02:39 PM): because God wants us to
BroknSnt (4:02:41 PM): lol
BroknSnt (4:02:46 PM): i kno thats a cookbook answer
BroknSnt (4:02:51 PM): but i cant think of a better way
Lilehfehce (4:02:52 PM): hehe, yeah
BroknSnt (4:02:58 PM): y do we have a conscience that tells us to do the right thing
BroknSnt (4:03:04 PM): even when we could gain by doing wrong, and get away with it
Lilehfehce (4:03:29 PM): that's something psychological
Lilehfehce (4:03:35 PM): as well
BroknSnt (4:03:41 PM): yes
BroknSnt (4:03:43 PM): but theological as well
Lilehfehce (4:04:42 PM): but tell me, to take a quote from the musical i'm in right now (haha, couldn't resist): what's the good of being kind if you're always left behind?
Lilehfehce (4:05:10 PM): in your own opinion
BroknSnt (4:05:45 PM): because there must be something beyond
BroknSnt (4:05:51 PM): thats exactly what i was saying
BroknSnt (4:05:58 PM): y is there goodness in us even if theres no rewards?
BroknSnt (4:06:01 PM): that we can see?
BroknSnt (4:06:07 PM): because there must be something beyond
Lilehfehce (4:06:22 PM): exactly
Lilehfehce (4:06:41 PM): but what happens to all the unjust people?
BroknSnt (4:06:47 PM): HELL
BroknSnt (4:06:49 PM): lol
BroknSnt (4:06:51 PM): or so they say
BroknSnt (4:07:06 PM): but thats what im saying, we alll screw up
BroknSnt (4:07:08 PM): nobody is perfect
Lilehfehce (4:07:08 PM): how would you describe hell, though
BroknSnt (4:07:11 PM): we're ALL unjust
BroknSnt (4:07:16 PM): good question...i do not really want to know
Lilehfehce (4:07:32 PM): exactly, so wouldnt we all go to hell?
BroknSnt (4:07:36 PM): yes
Lilehfehce (4:07:58 PM): in my opinion, hell is just a distance from god. the farther you are, the deeper into hell you are
BroknSnt (4:08:06 PM): yes
BroknSnt (4:08:10 PM): and if u die like that
BroknSnt (4:08:18 PM): its severing the chance to get back closer to god
Lilehfehce (4:08:38 PM): not in my opinion, since i believe in reincarnation
BroknSnt (4:08:46 PM): lol
Lilehfehce (4:09:01 PM): a christian hell is something i dont feel the need to fathom
BroknSnt (4:09:07 PM): no
BroknSnt (4:09:14 PM): i dont really think it'd be "a lake of fire and brimstone"
Lilehfehce (4:10:48 PM): but the universe/existence imo is basically a collective spirit, an infinite pool of energy and existence, so to speak, and when we're born part of that is made into us, and as we grow old we attempt to find a way back, and if we do, we become enlightened. otherwise, we find another incarnation that suits us as we are and try again
Lilehfehce (4:11:13 PM): so basically, in a sense, a christian hell is something plausible if not taken literally to an extreme
BroknSnt (4:11:28 PM): basically ur saying is
BroknSnt (4:11:33 PM): we'll be given chances over and over again
Lilehfehce (4:11:44 PM): 'sins of the flesh' are burned away in another life in 'hell' as a means of karmic balancing
BroknSnt (4:11:45 PM): ur sense of englightment is what they call "salvation" in christian doctrine
Lilehfehce (4:12:12 PM): basically, i guess you could say they're the same things
BroknSnt (4:12:18 PM): yes
BroknSnt (4:12:22 PM): the only difference being
BroknSnt (4:12:39 PM): the divinity of christ, and that u wont be reincarnated for another chance
Lilehfehce (4:13:15 PM): did they ever really say that in the bible? irrefutably?
BroknSnt (4:13:39 PM): i dont know
BroknSnt (4:13:43 PM): i havent read the bible cover to cover
BroknSnt (4:13:48 PM): i plan to do that after i finish this book
BroknSnt (4:14:17 PM): k
BroknSnt (4:14:22 PM): what i take so far
Lilehfehce (4:14:24 PM): well, imo nothing is ever said irrefutably
BroknSnt (4:14:40 PM): is that everyone gets "lights out" when they die
BroknSnt (4:14:44 PM): til the day of judgment
BroknSnt (4:14:55 PM): and basically everyone in the "book of life" - the followers of christ, will go to heaven
BroknSnt (4:14:59 PM): and everyone else thrown into hell
Lilehfehce (4:15:18 PM): perhpas it tells us that we will go to hell after we die if we don't believe in christ, but that can be translated to karma as well
Lilehfehce (4:15:33 PM): it's all quite vague, you know
BroknSnt (4:16:31 PM): true
BroknSnt (4:16:37 PM): even if i turned christian
BroknSnt (4:16:41 PM): i'd be quite a liberal one
Lilehfehce (4:17:05 PM): yeah
BroknSnt (4:23:34 PM): lol
BroknSnt (4:23:40 PM): i guess our enthusiasm died out?
Lilehfehce (4:24:05 PM): what else am i supposed to discuss?
BroknSnt (4:24:18 PM): lol i dunno
BroknSnt (4:24:29 PM): but u dont really seem to be focused on breaking my lil faith
BroknSnt (4:26:22 PM): which is good AND bad
Lilehfehce (4:27:57 PM): well, like i originally said, there's nothing wrong with taking a leap of faith
Lilehfehce (4:28:01 PM): eventually we all end up in the same place, in my belief
BroknSnt (4:28:17 PM): lol
BroknSnt (4:28:33 PM): i just need the assurance that im not being brainwashed
Lilehfehce (4:28:44 PM): but then again, i have been throwing a lotta stuff at you
Lilehfehce (4:29:03 PM): like i said, focus on the spirituality, not the religion
BroknSnt (4:29:03 PM): which is perfectly fine
Lilehfehce (4:29:37 PM): and again, i think christianity is the same as anything else, in that it leads you to the same place, but just tailored to fit the needs of certain people
Lilehfehce (4:29:58 PM): some people need the structure of the church, for example
BroknSnt (4:30:26 PM): yes
BroknSnt (4:30:27 PM): true
Lilehfehce (4:34:59 PM): but dude, man. why on god's green earth would you be at a christian school?
BroknSnt (4:35:33 PM): its the nearest private school
BroknSnt (4:35:34 PM): or lets just say
BroknSnt (4:35:40 PM): ....God's will
BroknSnt (4:35:42 PM): :-P
Lilehfehce (4:36:03 PM): hehe, that could be
Lilehfehce (4:36:21 PM): cuz i mean, i never knew you very well, but you seemed pretty atheist before
Lilehfehce (4:36:37 PM): so maybe this'll just help you find some kinda path
BroknSnt (4:36:56 PM): lol yes
BroknSnt (4:37:00 PM): funny thing is
BroknSnt (4:37:01 PM): this guy
BroknSnt (4:37:03 PM): cs lewis
BroknSnt (4:37:04 PM): is jsut like me
BroknSnt (4:37:08 PM): well at least so far
Lilehfehce (4:37:09 PM): and there's nothing wrong with using church as another social event, as long as it's nothing manipulative
Lilehfehce (4:37:20 PM): like people saying if you don't come to their camp you'll go to hell
BroknSnt (4:37:22 PM): hes an atheist who argued his way into christianity
Lilehfehce (4:37:38 PM): hehe
BroknSnt (4:38:15 PM): brb quickly, finish what u were saying
Lilehfehce (4:38:29 PM): all i saw of the show on his part was that when he was little his brother made this box filled with green things like twigs and leaves and dew and stuff and that was his first glimpse of 'beauty', but then his mom got sick and he prayed that she'd get better but he didnt
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Auto response from BroknSnt (4:38:29 PM): we admire people for their greatness
but we're to love them for their flaws
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Lilehfehce (4:38:36 PM): she*
Lilehfehce (4:39:01 PM): hrm, interesting quote...
Lilehfehce (4:40:05 PM): but then freud was raised in a very christian school, and his very beloved nanny especially was roman catholic even though he was jewish, and his father wanted him to be raised on the bible but also wanted him to have the option of more secular success, and he was the one who turned atheist
Lilehfehce (4:40:31 PM): i don't know the end of either story, though, cuz i didn't stay up long enough @_#
BroknSnt (4:47:04 PM): lol
BroknSnt (4:47:44 PM): what religion is sade?
Lilehfehce (4:48:02 PM): christian
Lilehfehce (4:48:07 PM): and she goes to church regularly
BroknSnt (4:48:12 PM): oh
BroknSnt (4:48:15 PM): lol
Lilehfehce (4:48:17 PM): other than that i'm unsure
BroknSnt (4:48:21 PM): just like that
BroknSnt (4:48:22 PM): eh
BroknSnt (4:48:30 PM): i probably dont wanna start anything with sade eh
Lilehfehce (4:48:35 PM): but i do know she believes in god, last time i checked
Lilehfehce (4:49:04 PM): i dont think she's incredibly dogmatic though, at least i dont feel i have any reason to believe she is
Lilehfehce (4:49:14 PM): you might have a nice discussion with ryan
BroknSnt (4:49:28 PM): oh ryan
BroknSnt (4:49:33 PM): is like the LAST i want to tackle