In the beginning was the Word
TheBroknSt (5:32:11 PM): sure...whats the question
Gunslinging19 (5:32:24 PM): It's a long one, no one has been able to answer it, not even my mormon friend Bill lol. Here we go:
TheBroknSt (5:33:13 PM): haha mormon
Gunslinging19 (5:35:19 PM): A man, an atheist or just agnostic, who holds the doors for people, who gives money to those who need it, who basically does everything to be an outstanding moralistic GREAT person. He does this because it is what he knows is right, having nothing to do with an organised religion. There another guy who is lets say a priest or something liek that, is not necessarily a good person, however he does all these things because he believes he is being judged, and is afraid of hell, and longs for heaven. Now #1 who deserves to go to heaven more? # 2 How is it right that the second guy will always be viewed as a better, higher person than the first?
TheBroknSt (5:35:57 PM): lol u asked a long question
TheBroknSt (5:36:03 PM): i have a LOOONG answer
Gunslinging19 (5:36:09 PM): Good
TheBroknSt (5:36:19 PM): but i do have an answer
TheBroknSt (5:36:22 PM): but let me answer 2 first
TheBroknSt (5:36:38 PM): the priest is not...or at least, theologically, should not be held higher
TheBroknSt (5:36:59 PM): priesthood is so that u could serve others in the spiritual path
TheBroknSt (5:37:03 PM): not so that u could be praised
TheBroknSt (5:37:10 PM): if a priest is praised and he enjoys his praise
TheBroknSt (5:37:17 PM): then he is walking in pride, and he'll probably end up in hell
TheBroknSt (5:37:30 PM): for it is said in the bible, the pride shall be brought low, and the humble shall be praised
Gunslinging19 (5:37:44 PM): According to teh catholic ( and many others) the first guy would go to hell no matter what. Yet the first guy ( not neccessarily a priest, just one acting teh way he does BECAUSE of religion)
TheBroknSt (5:37:49 PM): and yes
TheBroknSt (5:37:52 PM): the first guy would go to hell
TheBroknSt (5:38:02 PM): and let me explain why
TheBroknSt (5:38:13 PM): our doctrine holds that God is perfect and holy right?
Gunslinging19 (5:38:22 PM): ok
TheBroknSt (5:38:38 PM): i mean, i could argue with u day and night about how God is holy and perfect
TheBroknSt (5:38:40 PM): but that'd take hours
TheBroknSt (5:38:55 PM): so let me just tell u right now that our theological doctrine holds that God is perfect and holy
TheBroknSt (5:39:04 PM): and i could give u plenty bible references if u dont believe me
TheBroknSt (5:39:04 PM): now
TheBroknSt (5:39:09 PM): if God is holy and just
TheBroknSt (5:39:24 PM): he may not tolerate ANY sin, no matter how good the person is
TheBroknSt (5:39:46 PM): an ABSOLUTELY GOOD God, cannot just tolerate evil without compromising his holiness
Gunslinging19 (5:39:50 PM): It's a sin to not be part of an organised religion?
TheBroknSt (5:39:55 PM): no...
TheBroknSt (5:39:58 PM): but u cant say man is perfect
TheBroknSt (5:40:02 PM): no matter how good he is
TheBroknSt (5:40:11 PM): even if the atheist spends his entire life doing good
TheBroknSt (5:40:16 PM): u cant say he has never sinned
Gunslinging19 (5:40:41 PM): True enough.. so you think to be saved from his few sins, he must acknowledge and act God.
Gunslinging19 (5:40:48 PM): accept*
TheBroknSt (5:40:48 PM): well no
TheBroknSt (5:40:57 PM): even ONE sin is enough for God's wrath and judgment
TheBroknSt (5:41:06 PM): becuz a being of absolute goodness cannot tolerate ANY evil
TheBroknSt (5:41:11 PM): thats y Jesus came
TheBroknSt (5:41:26 PM): so that THE innocent, the one and the only sinless pays for all the sinners with his blood
TheBroknSt (5:41:33 PM): the expitiation of the price of sin
TheBroknSt (5:41:55 PM): God paid the price already
TheBroknSt (5:42:01 PM): we just have to accept the forgiveness he offers
Gunslinging19 (5:43:19 PM): So many things I'm having trouble with here.... if he cannot forgive one evil, then WHY send someone that enables him to? Why not just.. forgive them... Plus why would we want to be in a religion and faith that is constantly comparing us to this PERFECT being that will never accept our faults?
TheBroknSt (5:43:49 PM): he cannot just forgive them...becuz to just forgive them means to condone it
TheBroknSt (5:43:54 PM): and to condone an evil means to tolerate it
TheBroknSt (5:44:01 PM): a price must be paid for it
Gunslinging19 (5:44:09 PM): Lol God must be a lawyer.. Nice loophole
TheBroknSt (5:44:17 PM): no
TheBroknSt (5:44:21 PM): not a loophole
TheBroknSt (5:44:29 PM): Jesus was the only sinless Man
TheBroknSt (5:44:34 PM): why was that? cuz he was the Son of God
Gunslinging19 (5:44:45 PM): In essence he WAS God though, correct?
TheBroknSt (5:44:50 PM): he was...hmm...
TheBroknSt (5:44:53 PM): how to explain trinity
Gunslinging19 (5:45:13 PM): I was always told that jesus was God in mortal form
TheBroknSt (5:45:13 PM): "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
TheBroknSt (5:45:17 PM): John 1:1
TheBroknSt (5:45:26 PM): "the Word became Flesh and dwelt among us"
TheBroknSt (5:45:29 PM): John 1:14
TheBroknSt (5:45:49 PM): in a way, yes, he is the incarnation of God
Gunslinging19 (5:47:10 PM): Also.. what hell could they send my previously mentioned man to? Or does hell not have punishments that fit teh crimes? That was Hades, but I am guessing it might be the same
TheBroknSt (5:47:20 PM): honestly
TheBroknSt (5:47:24 PM): i dont know what Hell would be
TheBroknSt (5:47:36 PM): all i know is that it is eternal separation from God
TheBroknSt (5:48:01 PM): i didnt accept Christianity cuz i was afraid of hell and wanted to go to heaven
TheBroknSt (5:48:08 PM): i accepted it cuz i was convinced that it was true
Gunslinging19 (5:48:14 PM): I know that
Gunslinging19 (5:49:34 PM): Just a thought... the answer still troubles me, many have said that. I believe that the first man desrves to go to heaven and the 2nd desrves nothing. A man acting on insticts that are there from birth is much holy'r and closer to god than a man following a book that was written 100 years after Jesus's death.
TheBroknSt (5:50:00 PM): hm...
TheBroknSt (5:50:12 PM): my first answer would be "and thats why ur going to hell too"
TheBroknSt (5:50:16 PM): but that wouldnt really be a good answer
TheBroknSt (5:50:17 PM): :-D
TheBroknSt (5:50:39 PM): what im trying to say here is...good deeds dont matter as far as our salvation goes
TheBroknSt (5:50:44 PM): im not saying the first man is a bad man
TheBroknSt (5:50:46 PM): what im saying is
TheBroknSt (5:50:56 PM): those sins that he commits in his lifetime, and he will commmit them
TheBroknSt (5:51:09 PM): even if they're a lot fewer than the ones of the second man
TheBroknSt (5:51:15 PM): even ONE sin is enough to land him in hell
TheBroknSt (5:51:30 PM): becuz God, being holy and absolute, cannot tolerate any evil
Gunslinging19 (5:51:40 PM): If hell is what i deserve for dealing with everyones shit happily, and not following christianity, yet having my own ideas... then so be it. I'd rather have that than live a lie. That's me anyways.
TheBroknSt (5:52:13 PM): u kno whats the two main things that keeps ppl away from God?
TheBroknSt (5:52:20 PM): i would say its pride and fear
Gunslinging19 (5:52:23 PM): Catholicism.
TheBroknSt (5:52:27 PM): for ppl like us...its pride
Gunslinging19 (5:53:14 PM): You could call it that for me, but it's much more complicated than that.
TheBroknSt (5:53:21 PM): u kno why God doesnt just take over the world occupied by Satan and just bring the judgment day right now? u kno why he doesnt just end all the evil in the world right now?
TheBroknSt (5:53:30 PM): its so that people have the time to choose his salvation
TheBroknSt (5:53:39 PM): so that a few more than accept his forgiveness
TheBroknSt (5:53:42 PM): but the time will come
TheBroknSt (5:53:52 PM): and every tongue will confess that Christ is the Lord
TheBroknSt (5:53:56 PM): and evey knee shall bow
TheBroknSt (5:54:08 PM): but...by then...theres no point in saying u'll bow when u can no longer stand
Gunslinging19 (5:54:49 PM): hah. things like that make me angry.. A God of the people would never expect them to bow to him. So much for a loving God.
TheBroknSt (5:55:14 PM): not really
Gunslinging19 (5:55:14 PM): I have MANY problems with Christianity and Catholicism, especially it's roots.
TheBroknSt (5:55:24 PM): i think thats what God deserves all the praise
Gunslinging19 (5:55:57 PM): If he was absolute he wouldn't need/expect it. Didn't you just say a preist would probably go to hell for accepting praise?
Gunslinging19 (5:56:10 PM): How does that coincide?
TheBroknSt (5:56:27 PM): but u see
TheBroknSt (5:56:40 PM): there is infinite difference between a priest and God
TheBroknSt (5:56:53 PM): let me ask u this
TheBroknSt (5:57:00 PM): and u dont have to answer me right now
TheBroknSt (5:57:02 PM): but i want u to think about it
TheBroknSt (5:57:38 PM): r u really rejecting christianity on the basis that ur finding logical fault in its theology? or r u just looking at the so-called self-professed christians and churches around u and saying u dont wanna be a part of that?
TheBroknSt (5:58:11 PM): r u really studying and understanding the true theology of Christianity? have u even read the bible? did u read it b4 u rejected it?
Gunslinging19 (6:00:09 PM): I find logical fault in the preachings and beliefs of it's followers. Everything quoted to me basically. Check the profile, it's the fan club I have a problem with. And to answer your question, no I have not read the entire thing. It must seem hypocritical of me, I know, yet I never said I had a problem with the ideas of men that transformed their ideas into a book about a man they respected. I have a problem with what followed after, the people, and what they have come to believe.
TheBroknSt (6:00:42 PM): let me tell u this man
Gunslinging19 (6:00:48 PM): We really could go on for days like this you know lol
TheBroknSt (6:00:48 PM): most of the so called christians u see around u
TheBroknSt (6:00:51 PM): are NOT saved
TheBroknSt (6:01:14 PM): about 84% or something of Americans call themselves christians
Gunslinging19 (6:01:32 PM): Do you believe that you are? You seemed to have memorized a fair amount of things.. does that make you any more religious?
TheBroknSt (6:01:48 PM): no it doesnt
Gunslinging19 (6:01:57 PM): ok good making sure
TheBroknSt (6:02:01 PM): but it makes me handier to defend my faith against ppl like u...and ultimately...myself
TheBroknSt (6:02:21 PM): u dont think that i've stopped questioning just cuz ive become christian, do u?
TheBroknSt (6:02:37 PM): or do u think that my intelligence has dulled just cuz ive taken a leap of faith
Gunslinging19 (6:03:16 PM): So far from my POV your defense has been kinda weak >:D So many faults and cracks and just a feeling of it being WRONG. And to follow ANy organized religion you have to stop questioning some.. that's what faith is.
TheBroknSt (6:03:36 PM): weak?
TheBroknSt (6:03:39 PM): *grins&*
Gunslinging19 (6:03:42 PM): But I HOPE that you havnt stopped completely. Hard to tell from this position
TheBroknSt (6:03:44 PM): yet i dont understand what ur so caught up with
TheBroknSt (6:03:54 PM): u havent pointed out exactly what the fault of my logic is
TheBroknSt (6:04:19 PM): but i really dont want this to be a pride over intellect debate
TheBroknSt (6:04:35 PM): but let me finish what im saying, there are so many christians around...yet the bible specifically tells us that broad is the gate to destruction and many enter thru it, and narrow is the gate that leads to salvation and only a few find it...so dont let those around u tell u what christianity is...u find out on ur own
TheBroknSt (6:04:40 PM): and let me tell u just one more thing
TheBroknSt (6:05:11 PM): when i really started studying the theology...i found that the answers to the questions ive been asking for years have been in my face...i just always chose not to look and recognize them as answers
Gunslinging19 (6:05:47 PM): The fault , rather what fees SO wrong, is that your faith is in a religion that condones a man who does NOT forgive. Someone who holds himself higher than others, yet deems it wrong for his followers to do so. Thats plainly hypocritical. I can go on in many directions, thats just one thing out of many.
TheBroknSt (6:06:13 PM): *sigh*
Gunslinging19 (6:06:35 PM): I am not sayign that's what God is btw.. I think the religion has it wrong.
TheBroknSt (6:06:47 PM): u kno kraig
TheBroknSt (6:06:52 PM): i could stop going to church from now on
TheBroknSt (6:06:59 PM): stop asssociating myself with christians
TheBroknSt (6:07:05 PM): but that doesnt make me a non-christian
TheBroknSt (6:07:13 PM): being a christian isnt about the organized religion u so hate
Gunslinging19 (6:07:30 PM): Yet you have to be a part of it to be saved correct?
TheBroknSt (6:07:34 PM): nope
TheBroknSt (6:07:36 PM): i dont
TheBroknSt (6:07:59 PM): it only takes one thing
TheBroknSt (6:08:02 PM): one and only one thing
TheBroknSt (6:08:13 PM): well...u could say 2...but technically it is one thing
Gunslinging19 (6:08:17 PM): Then why is it that EVRYONE tells me that a man who believes in god, yet does not follow the rituals of christianity, will go to hell. If a man uses his OWN beliefs on god, he is wrong.
TheBroknSt (6:08:25 PM): well
TheBroknSt (6:08:29 PM): let me tell u exactly what it is
TheBroknSt (6:08:59 PM): it is the confession to God that you are sinner, and accepting that Jesus was Lord who came and died for your sins, and that God raised Jesus from the dead.
TheBroknSt (6:09:38 PM): "for if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved" - Romans 10:9
TheBroknSt (6:09:41 PM): thats all it is
TheBroknSt (6:10:02 PM): a man who believes in JESUS yet does not follow the rituals of christianity will be saved
TheBroknSt (6:10:33 PM): provided...he shouldn't continue on with his sin patterns...but that should come as a part of your true faith in heart that jesus came and died for ur sins
Gunslinging19 (6:12:57 PM): Sucks for me. I don't refute that it happned, nor do i completely agree with it. I believe Jesus was a man with ideas, a man who knew what right and wrong was, and tried to tell people to follow those instincts. He DID die for his beliefs, which can be viewed as died for us. That is something to be valued beyond any worth. But the lord and resurection part I do not have an opinion on, I was not there. Haha whatever, to each his own.
TheBroknSt (6:13:18 PM): lol well
TheBroknSt (6:13:20 PM): u kno bro
TheBroknSt (6:13:24 PM): everyone finds his faith in his own time
TheBroknSt (6:13:36 PM): im not gonna smack u in the head with a bible...im sorry if this whole convo went that way
Gunslinging19 (6:13:46 PM): hahaha yeah.. seemed like it
Gunslinging19 (6:14:55 PM): I've thought about it for a very long time. I know what I believe, and want nothing more, nor do i believe I need anything more. Oh well =/ We sure have come aways.. you a full blown follower. Never woulda guessed.
TheBroknSt (6:15:07 PM): hah
TheBroknSt (6:15:10 PM): ur not that far away either
TheBroknSt (6:15:12 PM): ^_^
TheBroknSt (6:15:38 PM): happened in 10 weeks...to get from where u r right now to get to where i am right now
Gunslinging19 (6:15:38 PM): From mere christianity? No I'm not. But a christian conformist? THat I will never be.
TheBroknSt (6:15:53 PM): im not exactly a christian conformist either
TheBroknSt (6:15:57 PM): but maybe to u i am
Gunslinging19 (6:16:04 PM): The quoting said otherwise lol
TheBroknSt (6:16:25 PM): ah...the scripture memorizing, praying, blah blah yea yea
TheBroknSt (6:16:33 PM): if ur talking about that, yea, i am
TheBroknSt (6:16:48 PM): well, mere christianity was just the start of it
TheBroknSt (6:16:55 PM): funny thing is
TheBroknSt (6:17:00 PM): the last straw...was something like this
TheBroknSt (6:17:07 PM): it was in a heated discussion with another old friend of mine
TheBroknSt (6:17:29 PM): and in him i saw so much of my old self...and i couldnt deny that i had changed so drastically...and ur probably gonna laugh at me, but i FELT God calling me
Gunslinging19 (6:18:03 PM): I never laugh at anothers views... disagree maybe but never laugh. Like I said: To each his own.
TheBroknSt (6:18:09 PM): well yea
TheBroknSt (6:18:13 PM): but its not exactly a logical view
Gunslinging19 (6:18:22 PM): From your point of view it is
TheBroknSt (6:18:29 PM): i mean...here i have all these logical arguments, and then i just go "well...then i just felt God
Gunslinging19 (6:18:33 PM): you DID feel it, and that YOU know to be true right?
TheBroknSt (6:18:36 PM): sort of an anti-climax...but whatever
TheBroknSt (6:18:44 PM): that i have FAITH in to be true
TheBroknSt (6:18:54 PM): there are still some issues that i struggle with
TheBroknSt (6:19:06 PM): and i just sigh and go "k...whatever...im not gonna understand"
Gunslinging19 (6:19:14 PM): haha
Gunslinging19 (6:19:25 PM): Catholicism pushes me away more than anything
TheBroknSt (6:19:46 PM): i have a SLIGHT prejudice against catholics
TheBroknSt (6:19:48 PM): tho i shouldnt
TheBroknSt (6:19:55 PM): if u asked me, i'd say im nondenominational
TheBroknSt (6:20:10 PM): *shrug* im just suggesting that u just study it as purely theological, not as a people-around-u thing...and u can come to me if u want this kind of heated religious discussions
TheBroknSt (6:20:19 PM): brb in a few tho...i gotta go eat dinner
Gunslinging19 (6:20:49 PM): Catholics are directly responable for teh deatsh of millions. I despise them >< Well I have to go study for my finalsd tmr.. ttyl man. This was fun btw, I expected no less. :-D