No, I don't, because as I've stated before, it's really the same thing. No, it isn't, and frankly, it isn't up to you, as a man, to make that call. If you want to be an ally, you're going to have to let women decide which issues they want to address and what feminism is about, and learn to take a back seat. Which is precisely why I'm not comfortable with men calling themselves feminists; because inevitably it means they want to determine the direction feminism takes, which usually means diverting it away from the issues women want to address.
This does not mean that if I break my toe that I will get a different treatment then your broken toe just because of genders. I can't speak for broken toes, but I have certainly been given different treatment from that given to a male friend who had pretty much identical symptoms, because of gender, for a medical issue which was not in itself gendered. So no, sorry, you're wrong. You are a man, you don't see what women experience, so don't try to tell us what we experience. OK?
There is a huge difference when you are driving in a car and your friend says "it's faster to take the freeway" vs. the guy in the back saying "Driver, take the freeway". That's me. But not only are you not the driver or the owner of the car, but you don't actually know where we're planning to go and you don't know the roads. So when you say "It's quicker to take the highway" what you're actually saying is "My opinion as someone who doesn't know the terrain here is worth more than yours, even though these are your roads, and your destination". And in fact, what you've been saying is not "It's quicker to take the freeway" but rather "I don't think we should go where you want to go, I've decided you should drive me to my chosen destination instead", to which my answer is, get out and walk, buddy.
I prod, poke, take things for a spin and that's how I understand things. But apparently what you don't do is listen to the people who actually _live_ this.
...you mean they actually are saying that they should close down women's shelters
( ... )
No, "we" haven't. You may have done so; I'm objecting to you twisting what has been said, for no apparent reason. That's not a stereotype, and it's not in my head. Go back and read again, and you'll see what I mean.
But yes, frankly, it probably is time for you to sit down and shut up; We're driving, we know where we're going, we don't need any backseat navigation.
i've been away from LJ so i've only just read this thread. but i wanted to say that i'm so impressed with the way you handled this conversation, the patience you showed, and how well you articulated yourself here. and also, thank you.
*snort* You said it a lot more succinctly than I did below. I guess one should best disregard any explanation people ever give for their actions, because after all if they hadn't given it, we wouldn't know.
You'll note I already acknowledged that this issue is complex and multifaceted, far from being as simple as "He hated women so he shot up the place." I've been kind of thinking about it like misogyny relates to Rodgers in the way Western cultural norms for women's bodies relates to anorexia nervosa: on the one hand you have some individuals likely already prone to a pattern of destructive thinking-- anxiety, depression, perfectionism, socially maladapted, etc-- and on the other you have an overarching culture handing them (and everyone) certain messages about society and how they ought to operate with in it. It is the individual's proclivities lead them to internalize these cultural messages in a much more extreme fashion than a typical person would and they behave atypically compared to the rest of society-- they are outliers-- but it is nevertheless the cultural messages that influence their behavior in specific ways. And while everyone else in society may not respond in such an extreme fashion, we are still being affected by these
( ... )
However, it does seem that to admit that women earn $.75 for every dollar men earn is fairly mainstream, but to say something like "hey, let's build a men's abuse center" is a radical thing. Is it? I dunno, I've seen an awful lot of people claiming that women aren't paid less than men, and no-one objecting to the idea of building a men's abuse centre, but that's just my personal experience. I _have_ seen a lot of men insisting that women should build men's abuse centres, but making no effort to get involved themselves, which is obviously problematic.
This is why I've said that Fourth-wave feminism needs to focus on men. But why is that a job for feminism?
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No, it isn't, and frankly, it isn't up to you, as a man, to make that call. If you want to be an ally, you're going to have to let women decide which issues they want to address and what feminism is about, and learn to take a back seat. Which is precisely why I'm not comfortable with men calling themselves feminists; because inevitably it means they want to determine the direction feminism takes, which usually means diverting it away from the issues women want to address.
This does not mean that if I break my toe that I will get a different treatment then your broken toe just because of genders.
I can't speak for broken toes, but I have certainly been given different treatment from that given to a male friend who had pretty much identical symptoms, because of gender, for a medical issue which was not in itself gendered. So no, sorry, you're wrong. You are a man, you don't see what women experience, so don't try to tell us what we experience. OK?
I don't think ( ... )
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That's me.
But not only are you not the driver or the owner of the car, but you don't actually know where we're planning to go and you don't know the roads. So when you say "It's quicker to take the highway" what you're actually saying is "My opinion as someone who doesn't know the terrain here is worth more than yours, even though these are your roads, and your destination".
And in fact, what you've been saying is not "It's quicker to take the freeway" but rather "I don't think we should go where you want to go, I've decided you should drive me to my chosen destination instead", to which my answer is, get out and walk, buddy.
I prod, poke, take things for a spin and that's how I understand things.
But apparently what you don't do is listen to the people who actually _live_ this.
...you mean they actually are saying that they should close down women's shelters ( ... )
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But yes, frankly, it probably is time for you to sit down and shut up; We're driving, we know where we're going, we don't need any backseat navigation.
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Is it? I dunno, I've seen an awful lot of people claiming that women aren't paid less than men, and no-one objecting to the idea of building a men's abuse centre, but that's just my personal experience. I _have_ seen a lot of men insisting that women should build men's abuse centres, but making no effort to get involved themselves, which is obviously problematic.
This is why I've said that Fourth-wave feminism needs to focus on men.
But why is that a job for feminism?
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