On Libya

[thewhitedragon]

For the record (and keeping in mind that I haven't watched any News programs since Friday and I'm hopped up on cold medicine so I'm possibly off the mark here): I'm not in favor of the way that the Libya situation is unfolding.

I might have supported targeting airborne fighters to enforce a no-fly zone but I don't agree that the destruction of the

Comments

[acroyear70]

It is not "servitude to the UN" when the UN Charter, and our role in it (as permanent member of the security council) is a treaty, signed by the President (then Harry S. Truman), and ratified by a 2/3rds majority of the Senate.

If the Republicans really didn't like the U.N., they could have proposed to revoke our agreement with that treaty at almost any time they had a majority of the Senate.

[thewhitedragon]

What I was talking about was several comments that I've seen about how America was basically *told* to invade by the U.N. and we just went along with it without a second thought. Yeah, there are people who believe that.

[anonymous]

Destroying air defenses is part and parcel of a no-fly zone. Before the Libya action happened, here were a couple of articles explaining what happens when you decide to impose a no-fly zone, and they went over exactly this. You can't have a no-fly zone without obliterating the air defense infrastructure.

[thewhitedragon]

And I understand that... to an extent. Our charter was strictly to enforce a no-fly zone and that would have allowed for return fire against anyone who fires on us. The axiom "innocent until proven guilty" applies here. We didn't give the military the chance to stand-down before we launched strikes against the ground targets.

Yes, there is logical reasoning in preemptive attacks on Ground-to-Air targets but that was not stated in anything that I've read regarding the operation (which, admittedly, is not as much as I would have liked).

[mandrakan]

No, here anonymous is right. Operating a no-fly zone requires total air superiority. If you're not on board with the destruction of ground-based air defenses, then you're not on board with a no-fly zone.[1] You're just signing up for opportunistic shooting-down of Libyan aircraft.

By calling for a no-fly zone, the UN Resolution permitted destruction of all air defenses. It did not -- at least not necessarily -- permit attacks on tanks, mortars or other G2G weapons.

[1] Which is a completely legitimate position to take, of course.

[thewhitedragon]

Unfortunately, thinking with a clearer head tonight, I've got to agree. :(

[kauricat]

I am not happy with the way the situation is unfolding either. And yeah, we need to pull back and take care of our own business. Goodness knows we've got enough problems right here that need solving.

I'm still really sad about the way the people are getting treated over there, though, and a part of me is glad we're trying to do something.

[thewhitedragon]

A movie that I saw a long time ago summed it up for me: "Don't bitch about the environment until you clean up your own front yard."

[toraneko]

I am actually happy with it. We are taking a supportive role, not point. We let others step up first. Bring the rain, get the fuck out.
I like it.

[russell_moore]

in Obama's own words, during a younger and apparently smarter time of his life:

“The president does not have power under the Constituti­on to unilateral­ly authorize a military attack in a situation that does not involve stopping an actual or imminent threat to the nation.”
Senator Barack Obama, December 20, 2007

funny how the rules change for these chuckleheads once they have the position

our currently president is sadly enough an utter self serving choad, head in his ass, selling out to the highest bidder, and seemingly incapable of doing the actual job he was elected to do

I had expected better, but it doesn't surprise me he has become the same flavor turd on just a different sidewalk

[thewhitedragon]

He's done far better than the last one but he's still got a lot of promises to keep before he wins back the public trust that was given to him when elected.

[russell_moore]

unfortunately, he seems dead set to head in the opposite direction, away from gaining our trust

this Libya bullshit is simply the latest example, not the only one

[thewhitedragon]

Yeah, while I knew he wouldn't be able to make all of the campaign promises come true, I did expect a little more than what we've gotten so far.