Politeness

[timwi]

If someone tells me that something I did, said, or wrote is impolite, rude, or in any other way objectionable, surely they do so in order to pressure me into "bettering myself", which essentially means to behave in a way they prefer. Logically, it is therefore actually their problem if they get worked up over something I do, say, or write, because

Comments

[elgrande]

They might also tell you that something you did was impolite in order to give you the possibility to change yourself, not necessarily connected with an expectation to do so. Just in case you think a bit of conformity in a certain area of life is more helpful than running into trouble.

"Of course not, because such rules do not exist."

I think some people do make up their own rules, but there is certainly a large agreement in a society as to what is polite and what isn't.

"the entire concept of "politeness" and "good form" is a suppression mechanism that aims to reduce variation and produce normativity."

I think there is a lot of truth in this. I don't think this is completely true, though. Like offering someone your help is considered polite but I don't think it's mainly an attempt to produce normativity. It's more of an attempt to create a society that works well.

[timwi]

I do not deny that there is a large agreement in our society as to what is polite and what isn't -- but due to the fact that it is never written down or formalised, there is too much variation in it for absolutely everyone to "get it right". Mind you, I don't actually have a problem with the rules themselves; I have a problem with the expectation that the rules be followed even by people like myself who are unable to figure them out.

I agree that it's an attempt to create a society that works well, but it attempts to do so by forcing normativity, and it does so under the prejudice that forcing normativity is the only way to achieve that. Why did witches get burnt? Why did homosexuals get prosecuted? Because people at the time thought that society could not "work well" if they were allowed to deviate from accepted norms. Yet witchcraft has eventually come to be accepted, has turned into scientific research and vastly improved human quality of life. Homosexuality is close to getting there too, and it is now widely considered more

[elgrande]

Do you think it's not polite when people try to force you to be polite? Is it their right to individuality to be someone who likes to tell people into behaving like he or she does?

[timwi]

If you're not careful, your argument can be extended to justify murder as a "right to individuality". :)

I don't mind if someone responds to something I say by saying something like, "Most people would consider this statement to be impolite", to which I can simply reply "Possibly, but I don't care". I do mind if someone responds by saying "You are so impolite, you definitely need to learn to behave better, and until you've done so, I won't talk to you again." That is unfair towards me because it presumes that I have some sort of desire to make other people feel uncomfortable with me, and I find it amazing just how hard it is for people to accept that this presumption is completely wrong. It also somewhat presumes that I should have as little difficulty "learning" this stuff as the speaker; which, again, I find amazing that people can't see that someone might find it as hard as they might find integral calculus.

[mart]

Maybe the people I associate with are more polite in general than yours, but people generally come to me with responses like "I was offended by what you said", which I don't mind because it correctly notes that the offense is specific to that particular person. What I don't like is when people make blanket statements like "That statement is offensive", which presumes that everyone would find it equally offensive. Most of the time, though, I think they mean "many people would find that offensive", which is probably true.

[timwi]

Hm, good point. In the specific case that triggered this entry, the person did write that they took issue with the tone in my e-mail and were consequently annoyed, however they also said that I would get more out of people if I was more polite. As if I hadn't been trying, and as if it was trivial to do that.

[ymf]

Telling you might be to help you "better" yourself, not primarily for their benefit, but in case that was something that matters to you only you didn't realize it was happening. Uh, was that too confusing?

I did read the comment thread above and figured that whoever had emailed you probably hadn’t meant well, but I just had to add my 2 cents’ worth. *sheepish*

[pthalogreen]

I both agree and disagree

[timwi]

When someone says that something you're doing is rude or objectionable or whatever, what they mean is that they are offended by something you have done, or possibly that they are hurt by something that you have done. Then the ball is in your court as to what to do with that information. You decide whether the other person's feelings and comfort is more important than the thing that they said was rude, and if so, you modify the behaviour around them as a courtesy, or you decide that the behaviour is more important to you, and you don't modify your behaviour, but don't surprise if the cost of that is alienating the other person.See, you're making the same mistake that the person who triggered this did. You are assuming that you can just say "This was rude" and that I will know precisely what you are talking about and precisely what particular behaviour needs to be modified to be seen as less rude by you. Then, if some other future behaviour evokes the same annoyance in you, your next assumption is that I must be doing it deliberately,

[pthalogreen]

If I or someone else is unclear when we say "this is rude", you have every right to ask for clarification about what specifically went wrong. A good way to go about it is saying that you didn't mean to offend them and you appologise, and could they please tell you what specifically they found offensive so you can know for future reference. Then the ball is back in your court. If they say "farting at the table is rude", then you know where they're coming from. But if they just say "hey, that's rude", then you don't know, and trying to guess may well make the matter worse if you guess wrong

[pthalogreen]

You shouldn't have to spend hours tailoring your e-mails and making sure you avoid every possible offense, but if you frequently get feedback that your words are coming across in a way that you didn't intend them to, and you get that feedback from several different sources, and especially if many sources say the same thing, it might be something to look into, from a linguistic stand point. There might be something in the subtext of your statements that you aren't aware of. If it's just one person reading too much into things, that is their problem, but it's still your problem to the extent that it's going to affect your relationship with them until you talk things through.