I despise Dan Savage, and the odd correct observation won't change my mind. Also, you're lovely and I don't understand how you think any part of this post applies to you, period.
Because I'm drunk - you wanna hang out in mid August? I will be in Portland for about a week pre-China, and I wanna hang out!
Re: uh, really?trapsparkyJuly 25 2008, 19:28:24 UTC
haha fair enough. why do you hate him? i was on the fence until i listened to a few podcasts and he sounded so much nicer speaking than writing
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Re: uh, really?the_naysayerJuly 25 2008, 23:17:07 UTC
The reason I like that stupid, stupid show is because I get a lot of joy from everything being aesthetically pleasing. I am totally into giving people the tools to surround themselves with lovely things and improve their qualities of life (and mine), which I think is one of that show's "missions." And I think part of their emphasis on the way others perceive your appearance is a way to teach people how to ride the messed-up power differentials in life using their appearance, you know? Which is both useful and kind of fucked up (especially when it comes to perceptions about race, class, and gender), but definitely a central issue in life for me.
But I agree with you that they frame all of their "education" in a way that resonates with the masses, i.e., making everyone feel ashamed for not looking pretty already. And that is definitely not okay. Plus they are helluv lame.
Re: uh, really?trapsparkyJuly 25 2008, 23:45:28 UTC
yeah the thing is i totally enjoy watching it and happily do so anytime nothing else is on. but it also upsets me (hence my regular arguments with stacey in my head while i'm dogwalking...) and i think i'm starting to put together why. i like everything to be aesthetically pleasing as well, but find it really upsetting when i realize i'm annoyed that other people don't look perfect, you know? like, where in our upbringings did we learn that we had a right to demand others to look good for us
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I generally think Dan Savage is hilarious, whether or not I always agree with him.
And I was originally into that response... Until talking to someone who pointed out that telling people to hate other people and be bitter as a way to solve their problems isn't very constructive. So the underlying message- these guys are presumptive assholes and they'll get old and unattractive in due time- is true, but she might be happier if she develops her self-confidence rather than just becoming angry and vengeful. Hatred eats away at you, but if you can feel good enough about yourself to just be like "fuck 'em, I'm cooler," then you might find yourself a lot happier.
yeah, i can see that. he does tell her to seek a therapist to work on her self-esteem regardless if she is/n't ugly or does/n't have body dysmorphia, which i think helps to address things more realistically, but i do wish he had talked more about the fact that self-esteem and the general value of people can (gasp!) come from something other than how attractive they are, and less about taking joy in other people's aging (which can feel good, but, yeah, doesn't solve the real problem in the least). mostly i was only interested in the part i quoted because it articulated something i've always felt but could never sum up quite so nicely.
Very seldom do I disagree with the man's conclusions. And even then, how could I hold a grudge against the man who turned Santorum into santorum?
But as true as this observation was, I think he could have gone farther still: Being raised with perverse values is certainly not going to stack the deck in favor of a person interacting respectfully with strangers, but no group (male/female; raised feminist/raised misogynist; straight/gay; alcoholic/straightedge) is without its members that are prone to acts of cruelty and superficiality. People can be fucking cruel; almost everybody has received devastating insults at some point. And he should have really stressed the whole "taste is subjective" angle. I mean, there are guys who go for "ugly". That might have a more immediate, positive, non-sour-grapes impact, I think. I have to agree with Megan that if you can start off with self-confidence, you can spare yourself the aggravation of splenetic rage.
But yeah, the man is pretty much in my top five for biting--edgy, even--social commentary
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Because I'm drunk - you wanna hang out in mid August? I will be in Portland for about a week pre-China, and I wanna hang out!
Reply
Reply
But I agree with you that they frame all of their "education" in a way that resonates with the masses, i.e., making everyone feel ashamed for not looking pretty already. And that is definitely not okay. Plus they are helluv lame.
Reply
Reply
And I was originally into that response... Until talking to someone who pointed out that telling people to hate other people and be bitter as a way to solve their problems isn't very constructive. So the underlying message- these guys are presumptive assholes and they'll get old and unattractive in due time- is true, but she might be happier if she develops her self-confidence rather than just becoming angry and vengeful. Hatred eats away at you, but if you can feel good enough about yourself to just be like "fuck 'em, I'm cooler," then you might find yourself a lot happier.
Reply
he does tell her to seek a therapist to work on her self-esteem regardless if she is/n't ugly or does/n't have body dysmorphia, which i think helps to address things more realistically, but i do wish he had talked more about the fact that self-esteem and the general value of people can (gasp!) come from something other than how attractive they are, and less about taking joy in other people's aging (which can feel good, but, yeah, doesn't solve the real problem in the least).
mostly i was only interested in the part i quoted because it articulated something i've always felt but could never sum up quite so nicely.
Reply
But as true as this observation was, I think he could have gone farther still: Being raised with perverse values is certainly not going to stack the deck in favor of a person interacting respectfully with strangers, but no group (male/female; raised feminist/raised misogynist; straight/gay; alcoholic/straightedge) is without its members that are prone to acts of cruelty and superficiality. People can be fucking cruel; almost everybody has received devastating insults at some point. And he should have really stressed the whole "taste is subjective" angle. I mean, there are guys who go for "ugly". That might have a more immediate, positive, non-sour-grapes impact, I think. I have to agree with Megan that if you can start off with self-confidence, you can spare yourself the aggravation of splenetic rage.
But yeah, the man is pretty much in my top five for biting--edgy, even--social commentary
Reply
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