In OotP, we learned more about his family (their related-ness to the Blacks),
This is one of my favorite moments, especially since the important connection within that book is to Narcissa, not Draco, as she's the one Kreacher goes to. It just seems so wonderful that here at the home of his godfather Malfoy is waiting for Harry as the end of the line, the student in his year who's an heir to this house. It's in a way another look at Malfoy's upbringing, Malfoy's hme, Malfoy's family. Just imagining that gold thread leading to that name makes me think, "Once again, all roads lead to Malfoy." Sirius dies, and Draco is left with his mother, the Black. Draco is also a Black
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Just imagining that gold thread leading to that name makes me think, "Once again, all roads lead to Malfoy."
Yes, exactly! It's like a pattern I think, that Malfoy often tends to be present, even when he's absent to Harry. We meet Draco usually late in this book, but we, the readers, aren't allowed to forget about his existance, because he shows up, either on Sirius family tree, or in Harry's mind ("I can't be as arrogant as Malfoy, can I?") It's also interesting in how Draco really has what Harry wants from Sirius; bloodrelatedness. So, Draco= the relative Sirius doesn't want, and Harry= the non-relative Sirius would does want.
That doesn't mean Draco's role has to ultimately be the same as in CoS, but that was also the book where she first tried to tell us exactly what DE children grew up understanding about Harry (even if it was cut out). If it's something different than everyone else, that would seem to be important, especially since it's possible the good side's version, as always, is just as biased.That's also one of the
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what seems like a real resistance in fandom to see the parallels between Draco and Snape
Haha! I wondered exactly that aloud on FAP once and got burned. I realized then that it wasn't always appropriate to suggest a link between Snape and our pathetic little Draco in front of Snape fanatics (I consider myself a big Snape fan!), because OMG how dare you :P!
Snape was an "innocent" and Malfoy isn't, Snape is interesting and Malfoy isn't, James was a jerk and Harry isn't.
Snape is already 'redeemed' from his sin while Draco hasn't even committed it. That's the real difference between them, they are the past and future tenses of a similar thing in a way! Snape does seem to be the obvious victim (even if he wasn't 100% "innocent") of James, but he still IS a bully elsewhere. Just ask Neville.
But a friendly relationship between Snape and Draco is often dismissed either with the idea that Snape is manipulating him for his spy-work or that Draco isn't capable of real affection.What boggles me is that people who dismiss the friendly
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Haha! I wondered exactly that aloud on FAP once and got burned.
I knew it!;D I remember that thread and I found it so frustrating, but I had barely even begun to post myself, so I was too intimidated to respond. IIRC the responses you got (the ones that came from Snape-lovers-but-Draco-haters, I mean) were sort of holding up Draco to an impossible standard, like he couldn't match Snape's wit or mystery, even though how would he even have a chance to do that, considering how much younger he is? The glimpses we got from Snape's own aduloscence didn't seem to reveal a youthling who was much wittier than Draco; "filthy little Mudblood" isn't wittier when Snape says it.
Snape does seem to be the obvious victim (even if he wasn't 100% "innocent") of James, but he still IS a bully elsewhere. Just ask Neville.
Kahvi: Neville, who do you think is worse, Professor Snape or Malfoy?
Neville (immediately gets a mortified expression on his face and stares at me as if I'm mad): P...P..P.. Professor Snape...
Like you, I always find it odd when people say Draco shows no signs of redeemable qualities like Snape does when hello? Snape is already a good guy. Exactly what qualities did he show in the Pensieve that made him seem potentially good? That he was the one with his knickers showing? That would be like taking the ferret scene and saying clearly Draco was a nice guy because he's humiliated in the scene. Victim does not have to equal innocent or good guy.
But then, people have also unsurprisingly claimed that Snape never believed in DE ideology but just joined them for his own purposes (just like Fanon!Draco), yet in OotP JKR goes out of her way to have Snape be the only other student to use the word Mudblood. Has that line of Snape's caused a stir? I've not seen it if it did. And that was Harry's *mother* Snape was talking to there, even if Harry for didn't react to it that way, exactly.
But then, people have also unsurprisingly claimed that Snape never believed in DE ideology but just joined them for his own purposes (just like Fanon!Draco),
Whitewashing of Snape disturbs me as much as demonising of Draco. And, yes, it does seem that these two often goes hand in hand.
Exactly what qualities did he show in the Pensieve that made him seem potentially good? That he was the one with his knickers showing? That would be like taking the ferret scene and saying clearly Draco was a nice guy because he's humiliated in the scene.
WORD. So Snape did not "ask for it" in the pensieve scene like Draco sort of did, so what ^^?! I would've totally understood and sympathized with Snape had he later had his large-scale revenge on James and Sirius, but it was his 'joining the DEs' that some people tried to justify with the pensieve scene (plus the fact that his parents were poor and fighting)! It has always confused me why a lot of readers are so ready to forgive Draco's peers (esp the 15-year-old James/Sirius/Snape)for whatever similar "crimes" they'd done, but with Draco it's just purely horrendous and evil on his part?
I never understood how someone could love Snape as a character and completely hate/write off Draco as a pathetic and weak bully with no purpose in the books. They're so alike!
As usual, I don't have much to add, so I have thought of some more indirect parallels.
Or that they both look like "Christmas has come early, or been cancelled" whenever they're feeling gleeful or disappointed.... Sometimes they get scenes that mirror one another in the same book. Like, in GoF, we first have Draco dramatically reading an embarrassing article aloud to Ron, and later on, we have Snape humiliating Harry and Hermione, in the exact same fashion in a Potions class.I never even noticed those
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The first thing that struck me, is that both Snape and Draco fired of a curse at James and Harry, respectively, while their backs were turned.
That's a good point, yes there are quite a few similarities between these two scenes that I hadn't thought of. Draco is also bounced into the air, and Snape is levitated. Not to mention that the ferret scene is the worst Draco-humiliation so far. I mean, sure the attacks at the end of OotP and GoF are more violent, but it seems that they would probably be less humiliating for Draco in that a) not the entire school is looking on, b) like in the Pensieve scene most onlookers seem to pretty much be of the mind "yay for tormentor". Also, it hadn't occurred to me until you brought the scenes up, but McGonnagall=Lily!:D Draco is "saved by a girl" too, though I guess it's less humiliating because it is at least a teacher with authority, and not a peer with a bloodline he looks down upon (who seems to have ulterior motives).
Also, this is really weird, but their appearances mirror each other - Draco
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While I could sort of agree with people who think the reason Draco's background was touched upon, was because Draco *was* the big plot device to bring Lucius and Narcissa (the real baddies) naturally into the story-I just can't see how some readers can stubbornly refuse to recognize the link between Snape and Draco, which is just well... sledge-hammer-obvious like you said!
It's not like the link between them necessarily bodes well for Draco's future development. Or that if you like Snape you'll have to like Draco too! I think the fact that the two characters are to a degree connected simply means Rowling is going to tell us a story about them in relation to each other. And I don't believe there needs to be a perfect parallel (which would've been boring), what's important is the underlying 'moral of the story'.
Say we were supposed to read the pensieve scene and think, "Nope there isn't a meaningful parallel between Snape/James and Draco/Harry, because you see, Snape=victim and Draco=bully!", then what
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It's not like the link between them necessarily bodes well for Draco's future development. Or that if you like Snape you'll have to like Draco too! I think the fact that the two characters are to a degree connected simply means Rowling is going to tell us a story about them in relation to each other. And I don't believe there needs to be a perfect parallel (which would've been boring), what's important is the underlying 'moral of the story'.
Yes, that's exactly how I see it. It only means that their respective stories are -in one way or the other- related to each other, and I think that that, in itself, speaks against the "Draco is only there to serve as a stereotype and his importance will diminish" argument. Because if his story is meant, by JKR herself, to reflect upon Snape's, then there must at least be a well-thought out story there to tell. And ITA that it would be boring if they more or less had the same story, and I don't think it's likely. Though I was worried after reading the first book that this would be the kind of
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A sort of OT question- Remember Rowling has once said in an interview that the name Malfoy (bad faith) "suits him very well"? I was never sure whether it was Draco or Lucius that she was talking about. If she was talking about Draco it might be bad news, like say he follows his dad into his own demise? But my question is, do you think Rowling thought of Draco first, and then came up with Lucius and Narcissa, or the other way round?
But my question is, do you think Rowling thought of Draco first, and then came up with Lucius and Narcissa, or the other way round?
My guess would definitely be that she thought of Draco first. Lucius and Narcissa seem to be there to give more insight to Draco, rather than the other way around. Narcissa has only really existed by name in all the books so far, and Lucius comes off as much more of a type, much more 2D than Draco. We didn't even get to meet him until the second book. And how exactly do Lucius and Narcissa relate to Harry? They don't, really, they relate to Voldemort, whereas Draco is the only one in the family who relates to Harry directly. And it just seems more likely that she would have made up all the characters who relate, directly, to her hero, before she takes it a step further and make up/flesh out the characters who relate to the antagonist
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Comments 26
In OotP, we learned more about his family (their related-ness to the Blacks),
This is one of my favorite moments, especially since the important connection within that book is to Narcissa, not Draco, as she's the one Kreacher goes to. It just seems so wonderful that here at the home of his godfather Malfoy is waiting for Harry as the end of the line, the student in his year who's an heir to this house. It's in a way another look at Malfoy's upbringing, Malfoy's hme, Malfoy's family. Just imagining that gold thread leading to that name makes me think, "Once again, all roads lead to Malfoy." Sirius dies, and Draco is left with his mother, the Black. Draco is also a Black ( ... )
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Yes, exactly! It's like a pattern I think, that Malfoy often tends to be present, even when he's absent to Harry. We meet Draco usually late in this book, but we, the readers, aren't allowed to forget about his existance, because he shows up, either on Sirius family tree, or in Harry's mind ("I can't be as arrogant as Malfoy, can I?") It's also interesting in how Draco really has what Harry wants from Sirius; bloodrelatedness. So, Draco= the relative Sirius doesn't want, and Harry= the non-relative Sirius would does want.
That doesn't mean Draco's role has to ultimately be the same as in CoS, but that was also the book where she first tried to tell us exactly what DE children grew up understanding about Harry (even if it was cut out). If it's something different than everyone else, that would seem to be important, especially since it's possible the good side's version, as always, is just as biased.That's also one of the ( ... )
Reply
Haha! I wondered exactly that aloud on FAP once and got burned. I realized then that it wasn't always appropriate to suggest a link between Snape and our pathetic little Draco in front of Snape fanatics (I consider myself a big Snape fan!), because OMG how dare you :P!
Snape was an "innocent" and Malfoy isn't, Snape is interesting and Malfoy isn't, James was a jerk and Harry isn't.
Snape is already 'redeemed' from his sin while Draco hasn't even committed it. That's the real difference between them, they are the past and future tenses of a similar thing in a way! Snape does seem to be the obvious victim (even if he wasn't 100% "innocent") of James, but he still IS a bully elsewhere. Just ask Neville.
But a friendly relationship between Snape and Draco is often dismissed either with the idea that Snape is manipulating him for his spy-work or that Draco isn't capable of real affection.What boggles me is that people who dismiss the friendly ( ... )
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I knew it!;D I remember that thread and I found it so frustrating, but I had barely even begun to post myself, so I was too intimidated to respond. IIRC the responses you got (the ones that came from Snape-lovers-but-Draco-haters, I mean) were sort of holding up Draco to an impossible standard, like he couldn't match Snape's wit or mystery, even though how would he even have a chance to do that, considering how much younger he is? The glimpses we got from Snape's own aduloscence didn't seem to reveal a youthling who was much wittier than Draco; "filthy little Mudblood" isn't wittier when Snape says it.
Snape does seem to be the obvious victim (even if he wasn't 100% "innocent") of James, but he still IS a bully elsewhere. Just ask Neville.
Kahvi: Neville, who do you think is worse, Professor Snape or Malfoy?
Neville (immediately gets a mortified expression on his face and stares at me as if I'm mad): P...P..P.. Professor Snape...
What boggles me is that people who ( ... )
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But then, people have also unsurprisingly claimed that Snape never believed in DE ideology but just joined them for his own purposes (just like Fanon!Draco), yet in OotP JKR goes out of her way to have Snape be the only other student to use the word Mudblood. Has that line of Snape's caused a stir? I've not seen it if it did. And that was Harry's *mother* Snape was talking to there, even if Harry for didn't react to it that way, exactly.
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Whitewashing of Snape disturbs me as much as demonising of Draco. And, yes, it does seem that these two often goes hand in hand.
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WORD. So Snape did not "ask for it" in the pensieve scene like Draco sort of did, so what ^^?! I would've totally understood and sympathized with Snape had he later had his large-scale revenge on James and Sirius, but it was his 'joining the DEs' that some people tried to justify with the pensieve scene (plus the fact that his parents were poor and fighting)! It has always confused me why a lot of readers are so ready to forgive Draco's peers (esp the 15-year-old James/Sirius/Snape)for whatever similar "crimes" they'd done, but with Draco it's just purely horrendous and evil on his part?
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*is happy*
gehehehehe. I love it so much.
A big word to everything.
I never understood how someone could love Snape as a character and completely hate/write off Draco as a pathetic and weak bully with no purpose in the books. They're so alike!
As usual, I don't have much to add, so I have thought of some more indirect parallels.
Or that they both look like "Christmas has come early, or been cancelled" whenever they're feeling gleeful or disappointed.... Sometimes they get scenes that mirror one another in the same book. Like, in GoF, we first have Draco dramatically reading an embarrassing article aloud to Ron, and later on, we have Snape humiliating Harry and Hermione, in the exact same fashion in a Potions class.I never even noticed those ( ... )
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Or Lucius'...or Snape's, probably!
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That's a good point, yes there are quite a few similarities between these two scenes that I hadn't thought of. Draco is also bounced into the air, and Snape is levitated. Not to mention that the ferret scene is the worst Draco-humiliation so far. I mean, sure the attacks at the end of OotP and GoF are more violent, but it seems that they would probably be less humiliating for Draco in that a) not the entire school is looking on, b) like in the Pensieve scene most onlookers seem to pretty much be of the mind "yay for tormentor". Also, it hadn't occurred to me until you brought the scenes up, but McGonnagall=Lily!:D Draco is "saved by a girl" too, though I guess it's less humiliating because it is at least a teacher with authority, and not a peer with a bloodline he looks down upon (who seems to have ulterior motives).
Also, this is really weird, but their appearances mirror each other - Draco ( ... )
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While I could sort of agree with people who think the reason Draco's background was touched upon, was because Draco *was* the big plot device to bring Lucius and Narcissa (the real baddies) naturally into the story-I just can't see how some readers can stubbornly refuse to recognize the link between Snape and Draco, which is just well... sledge-hammer-obvious like you said!
It's not like the link between them necessarily bodes well for Draco's future development. Or that if you like Snape you'll have to like Draco too! I think the fact that the two characters are to a degree connected simply means Rowling is going to tell us a story about them in relation to each other. And I don't believe there needs to be a perfect parallel (which would've been boring), what's important is the underlying 'moral of the story'.
Say we were supposed to read the pensieve scene and think, "Nope there isn't a meaningful parallel between Snape/James and Draco/Harry, because you see, Snape=victim and Draco=bully!", then what ( ... )
Reply
Yes, that's exactly how I see it. It only means that their respective stories are -in one way or the other- related to each other, and I think that that, in itself, speaks against the "Draco is only there to serve as a stereotype and his importance will diminish" argument. Because if his story is meant, by JKR herself, to reflect upon Snape's, then there must at least be a well-thought out story there to tell. And ITA that it would be boring if they more or less had the same story, and I don't think it's likely. Though I was worried after reading the first book that this would be the kind of ( ... )
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My guess would definitely be that she thought of Draco first. Lucius and Narcissa seem to be there to give more insight to Draco, rather than the other way around. Narcissa has only really existed by name in all the books so far, and Lucius comes off as much more of a type, much more 2D than Draco. We didn't even get to meet him until the second book. And how exactly do Lucius and Narcissa relate to Harry? They don't, really, they relate to Voldemort, whereas Draco is the only one in the family who relates to Harry directly. And it just seems more likely that she would have made up all the characters who relate, directly, to her hero, before she takes it a step further and make up/flesh out the characters who relate to the antagonist ( ... )
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