My reaction to the Occupy Foo Movement (Crosspost)

[truthspeaker]

The impression I am getting from a lot of people is that the government is corrupt and does not want to improve things. I get the impression from a lot of people that Congress could pass laws to get things going in the right direction, if only they were motivated enough -- that we need to protest to tell people that this is important and convince

Comments

[elusiveat]

I think that you misunderstand why the protests are seen as important. They are important because it is the first time in ~30 years that politics on the left have really driven *any* high profile political conversation in this country. Someone on the left will see the protests as a good thing, because they draw attention to left-wing values, and increase the likelihood that progressive values will be incorporated into policies. Someone on the right will see the protests as a bad thing, for the same reasons. For both sides, the protests are important. Those on the right might act like they don't see them as important because they don't want the left to take control of the conversation, but in reality they will see them as increasingly important the more visible they are: they'll need to be prepared to respond

[truthspeaker]

I would agree with you except for one thing -- the movement does not want to be considered the left and opposes being labelled as leftist. A large portion of it is conservative and libertarian -- in fact, many of the people are the exact same people from the tea party protests.

To some degree, it's the media that is drawing attention to left-wing values by ascribing them to the movement. The movement itself is all over the map, as the intent is to build an all-inclusive base and create horizontal democracy.

So, while I consider that a very interesting strategy, I'm not sure it's as effective as having an actual movement by the left. It could cause people to rethink the way they divide politics into left and right, or it could just be misunderstood as the "leftist equivalent of the tea party," which it is not.

[elusiveat]

It is extensive right-wing propoganda that has given left-wing politics the aura of "evil" or "stupidity" that makes it so undesirable to have a populist movement labeled as "leftist." The truth is that we all have some conservative values and some liberal values. The movement is trying to be universal in that it is appealing to liberal values in a manner that will sound reasonable to people who are otherwise quite conservative.

Conservatives play the same game, e.g. talking about "tax relief" because, really, who would *want* to be taxed more. They've been much more aggressive in playing this game than the liberals have been. Things are changing somewhat now.

As for the economic recovery...

[elusiveat]

I will not speak for other left-wing folks, but personally I find the speed of the economic recovery nearly irrelevant.

What is important about the economic situation is that people who were struggling to make ends meet before the economic collapse are having an even harder time of things, while the super-rich aren't hurting at all. The problem existed before the collapse. It is worse now.

I am *not* trying to start an argument by saying the above, and have no intention of arguing with anybody who comments to disagree. I am simply reporting my feelings on the issue, as a representation of *one* left-wing perspective.

[cos]

You're contradicting your own reasoning.

On the one hand you talk about how the 99% includes such a wide diversity of opinions, and people who want many things that are the opposite of what others want.

On the other hand you think the right thing for the movement to do would be to agree on a set of specific policy proposals that only a small subset of the movement actually want.

What you've missed is the Occupy movement's actual demands: Government should be accountable to people, not money. Wealth should not speak so loudly compared to the voices of everyone else. Corporations are not people, people are people.

It seems to me that the movement is quite comfortable with a wide diversity of opinions that may contradict each other, and allowing for that is part of the point. Their demand is that all of those be listened to, but in proportion to ... how much sense they make, how persuasive they are, how many people hold each opinion, almost any standard except the one standard that dominates all others today: in proportion to how

[truthspeaker]

That's not a contradiction per se, merely a complex position. I said "policy priorities," not "specific policy proposals" because I acknowledge specific policy proposals might alienate some portion of the movement. However, in some ways, I feel like that's more honest than refusing to make a statement. At the same time, I'm also allowing for a process people might find some common ground -- as you yourself say, it's a big tent that can include people who disagree. They are, in fact, having meetings trying to hash things out. So, it might not have to alienate people after all. But it still might after all, depending on how its done. My position is that it's tricky but worth doing. Make sense

[truthspeaker]

Sorry, I should rephrase the question: "If I support this movement, how will that help things rather than make them worse?"

[cos]

Some advice from George Lakoff to the Occupy Wall Street movement:

I think it is a good thing that the occupation movement is not making specific policy demands. If it did, the movement would become about those demands. If the demands were not met, the movement would be seen as having failed.

It seems to me that the OWS movement is moral in nature, that occupiers want the country to change its moral focus. It is easy to find useful policies; hundreds have been suggested. It is harder to find a moral focus and stick to it. If the movement is to frame itself, it should be on the basis of its moral focus, not a particular agenda or list of policy demands. If the moral focus of America changes, new people will be elected and the policies will follow. Without a change of moral focus, the conservative worldview that has brought us to the present disastrous and dangerous moment will continue to prevail.