FREE-FOR-ALL META COMMENT-A-THON

[upupa_epops]

Old news: lj is dead. Everyone is crazy busy, or they have other reasons not to be here. No one has time to read those huge meta posts we used to write once upon a time. But maybe we can all find ten minutes to do this:

FREE-FOR-ALL META COMMENT-A-THON!

Comments

[streussal]

Buffyverse, Angel vs Angelus - can they really be considered separate people? Does it depend on which show?

[icarus_chained]

It's been ages since I've seen either show, and I watched more AtS than BtVS to start with, so I'm a little confused on this issue. I do have one question, though: did either show ever answer the question of what a 'soul' actually was? Because when you put the whole Angel/Angelus(/Liam) question up against Spike's arc, that seems to get awfully confused

[icarus_chained]

When the soul was given back to Angel, what it did was remove the excuse vampirism had given him, shove the attention of the Higher Powers back on him. It didn't so much change him as remind him of the parts he'd buried, and remove the excuse for the darkness he'd gloried in. It reminded him that 'God' or TPTB were still watching him and still judging him, and he was more than just a vampire now, so he'd better start acting like it once more.

Because even Angel, soul and all, still has the capacity to act like Angelus, the same as any human in the 'verse still has the capacity for evil. We saw that in S2 of AtS, when Angel went off the rails and committed several acts that had all the hallmarks of Angelus' sadism (locking the lawyers in, burning Darla and Dru). He could have gone for something purer, more efficient, but he chose what he considered 'poetic justice'. In his darkest moments, Angel still very much retains Angelus' intrinsic sadism and dramatic flare. Mostly, I think, because Angelus' intrinsic sadism/flare were always

[tigerpetals]

Buffy had her soul sucked out of her in a standalone season four episode, by her demon roommate. And if I remember correctly, there was a little boy on Angel once who was born without a soul. This did have a negative effect on their behavior

[icarus_chained]

Huh. As I said, it's been ages, and my Buffy viewing was a bit spotty. I remember the kid on Angel, though. I didn't think it was that he hadn't got a soul, I thought it was that he was born a sociopath? The demon that possessed him was horrified, because the kid committed acts of evil without actually believing in evil, just because he could and he didn't see a reason why not. This was a demon being horrified, mind you. A demon who was quite proud to be a servant of evil. As far as he was concerned, evil for evil's cause was fine, but evil for no cause whatsoever was horrifying. Which is ... fascinating, really.

Maybe they said the kid was born without a soul. I need to look that episode back up. *muses* Do demons in the Buffyverse have souls? Vampires don't, but other demons?

[tigerpetals]

I don't remember well enough about that Angel episode, so I might have been confused. I remember what the Buffy episode was though: Living Conditions, http://www.buffyworld.com/buffy/season4.php#ep058

In this one, the demon who wanted Buffy's soul didn't have one; she sucked Buffy's because when disguised, her kind could only find each other by sensing the absence of a soul. I don't remember about other demons.

[tigerpetals]

The comment was marked as spam because I included a link to a Buffy transcript. Here is the comment sans link:

I don't remember well enough about that Angel episode, so I might have been confused. I remember what the Buffy episode was though: Living Conditions.

In this one, the demon who wanted Buffy's soul didn't have one; she sucked Buffy's because when disguised, her kind could only find each other by sensing the absence of a soul. I don't remember about other demons.

[angelus2hot]

I hope you don't mind my butting in. This is fascinating.

The Angel episode is 'I've Got You Under My Skin'

And according to the show the boy didn't have a soul he was possessed by an Ethros demon who couldn't influence the little boy until he was asleep and then he could only whisper to him making him sleepwalk and almost get hit and killed by a car.

Wesley tell's the Ethros demon "You didn't get that boy's soul."
The Ethros demon replies "Hmpf, what soul?"

[shobogan]

I think, for most vampires, regaining their soul would be an experience much like Spike's; their core personality wouldn't change, they'd just suddenly have a conscience. We know the demon itself doesn't have a personality - in Pylea it was just a mindless, raging monster.

I see the divide between Angel and Angelus as largely psychological. Angel spent so much time trying to lock the worst parts of himself away that they only manifest when the demon is in control. They've become a separate identity, which is easier for him to deal with.

It became apparent, of course, that Angel is just as capable of cruelty and ruthlessnes and callousness. But that wasn't until his own show, when he was becoming more of a person than a walking guilt complex.

I'd always hoped, eventually, Angel would accept all parts of himself and become a...sort of fusion, really. It could have been part of a method to truly, finally anchor his soul.