Comments | water_fowl182: Of dungeons and dragons. SPN 6.12 Like A Virgin

water_fowl182

Of dungeons and dragons. SPN 6.12 Like A Virgin

Feb 07, 2011 14:45

I'm late to the party, as ever. It's been a long and excruciating wait, but SPN is back in the saddle. Or so it claims.
Episode 6.12 'Like a Virgin', quite frankly, left me more confused than gratified and far more perplexed, than hopeful. But for what it's worth, my educated guess is - it was probably meant to, since we're entering a new leg of ( Read more... )

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Comments 29

blackjedii February 7 2011, 17:33:44 UTC

I tried to read everything this morning but I might have misunderstood some - it was a loong night.

That said, I think part of the inconsistencies come from the fact that this is a new writer on this episode, Adam Glass, and so, like always, his Sam and Dean will be just so slightly different from say, Ben Edlund's Sam and Dean.

Secondly, I'd hazard to guess that a lot of this episode was quite literally throwing those who "missed the Brotherly Bond" a proverbial bone, since even JENSEN was begging for Sam to get back to "Sam." Sera Gamble already mentioned in one recent interview that they were playing with the idea that that particular soulless storyline would last all season.

Finally - I can definitely see that there will probably be an undercurrent of conflict beneath all of this because it is Supernatural, and the main characters must never be allowed to be happy, so I might as well enjoy what little honest-to-goodness Winchester connection comes my way. ;)

water_fowl182 February 7 2011, 17:58:06 UTC

Foremost, thank you for such an insightful comment ( ... )

blackjedii February 7 2011, 19:10:08 UTC

So all the oddities and incongruities have to fit in, somehow.

Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. It always surprises me in hindsight what I'm supposed to be picking up on, compared to what completely flew past me and/or seems insignificant. SPN is bad in that its themes are so hit and miss on an individual viewer level, and the writers aren't always willing to explain themselves (or the unreliable narrative which is omnipresent).

Which might as well work as a means to the 'false anticipation effect', the show is so keen on.I'm sure that's at work in some way or another ( ... )

water_fowl182 February 7 2011, 19:26:46 UTC

"SPN is bad in that its themes are so hit and miss on an individual viewer level, and the writers aren't always willing to explain themselves (or the unreliable narrative which is omnipresent ( ... )

Thread 5

ladyelektra February 7 2011, 18:43:02 UTC

You brought up some interesting points about Sam's behavior that I noticed too -- a tad on the cold side. Like his easy assumption that Dean hadn't changed at all, or that he didn't even try to go back to Lisa. Then there was the comment you mentioned that struck me as odd too -- him saying "that's what YOU did after hell" when Dean suggested he just take it easy a couple more days.

The year apart has put them in such different places, and I really hope they can reconcile that without totally screwing each other over. I know Sam won't have it easy considering all the soulless stuff he did. But I'm a little more worried about Dean at this point -- I wonder if Sam will ever understand (or try to understand) the emotional repercussions of having him back but not really.

water_fowl182 February 7 2011, 19:10:16 UTC

Much as I want to hopeful, I'm worried too. For now, at least. Until the narrative proves otherwise.
The *small* interactive things were, seemingly, on display this episode. But there were also some bigger things, strategecally located in the places that hit close to home (Dean's experience in Hell, Dean's time with Lisa and Ben, Dean 'having not' changed - just like you pointed out) that either felt off or lacking. And I'm not sure whether it was an acting glitch, a writing glitch or original intent. Be it the latter, it rings some disturbing bells wrt Sam's resoulment.

And I'm right with you, apprehensive the full scale of Dean's suffering through the ordeal of RoboSam might never get recognized to the utmost: for Sam will have no reference pattern, even if he recollects his Robo-ways completely, and Dean would, most likely, not insist on delving too deeply into his own personal costs. Since it's just no something Dean does. And he's known to be willing to sacrifice personal retribution for the sake of Sam's safety/well-being.

ladyelektra February 8 2011, 17:38:16 UTC

I guess we can't expect Sam to be exactly the same. Even though he doesn't consciously remember, all that crap is still deep down somewhere. Theoretically, I guess that could be affecting him on levels we're not really sure of yet?

No, Dean certainly wouldn't let on how desperate things were right before Sam got his soul back. I hope Sam is able to cut him some slack anyway. And of course Sam may "know" what happened, but to him it's still only like a story that he doesn't have any connection to. That must be freaking weird for him.

water_fowl182 February 8 2011, 19:08:15 UTC

"I guess we can't expect Sam to be exactly the same. Even though he doesn't consciously remember, all that crap is still deep down somewhere. Theoretically, I guess that could be affecting him on levels we're not really sure of yet?"

Sure! That's, by far, one of the major points to consider wrt all the alleged 'back-to-normal' undertones this episode. Sam is *not* the exact same person to have leapt into the Cage 1,5 years ago, amnesia or not, and neither is Dean. So there hardly could be a 'back' to normal on the table for the two of them. More like, a prospect of a 'forward' to normal, sometime, somehow. Whatever passes for 'normal' in the Winchester Brotherdom of Woe, anyway.

erivar February 7 2011, 22:21:15 UTC

Lovely analysis. You gave this avid fangirl who was and is still in the corner of "yay! Sam & Dean are back to normal!" a lot to think about it. My intellectual mind is agreeing with you but my "who cares, Sam & Dean wuv each other again" mind is sticking her tongue at you ( ... )

water_fowl182 February 7 2011, 23:37:04 UTC

Thank you for such an elaborate comment. I really appreciate that!

i never saw Lisa & Ben as family to Dean. I saw them as an opportunity of a family for Dean, but never quite there as the equation doesn't add up. I do agree, that Lisa and Ben were a dream as much as an *idea* of a family for Dean. But it is also true that that idea was in play for a fairly long-term, dating back all the way before Dean's trip to Hell ( ... )

Part 2 water_fowl182 February 7 2011, 23:37:32 UTC

Dean physically went to see Lisa & Ben while knowing he was dangerous. In as much as robo!Sam was not all Sam but Sam has to face the actions he did as robo!Sam because it was a part of Sam, Dean's choice of going to see Lisa & Ben as a vampire is all on his shoulder even if robo!Sam let him get turned. He should have known better. He put their life at risk. His choice, his actions, his responsibility. Oh, trust me - this viewer here doen't gloss over Dean's complicity in the least (I actually speculated quite at length over the dooming repercussions of Dean choice in the overview for the ep. followign the vampire incident - 6.06). More importantly, I think, *Dean* himself doesn't gloss over his complicity. Yet again - the situation is a tragic catch: Sam let Dean get turned - Dean made a conscious, albiet, stupid mistake, endangering Lisa and Ben - Dean can't and won't forgive himself for fleshing out his one utmost nightmare (bringing the monster into Lisa's life) - Dean won't be able to forgive Sam till he forgives himself. The ( ... )

etoile444 February 7 2011, 23:49:13 UTC

That said, Sam's *mind* had access to the memory stock and reference patterns to be capable of individual choices enough, even devoid of emotional and evaluative capacity sans soul, for those choices to be appropriated by Sam's persona and owned up to.

I'm reading it this way too. I'm not so sure the Sam we saw in 6.12 is ever going to be the pre-vessel of Lucifer Sam. I think something will be as permanently chaged as when Sam came back from the dead at the end of S2.

water_fowl182 February 8 2011, 00:10:29 UTC

Completely agree with you here. Just like Dean is never to be the same person he was before Hell; never to be the same after Sam's leap into the Cage; never to be the same after RoboSam.
Same goes for Sam. The mere experience of Lucifer might've presupposed never going back to exactly who and how he once was. But the accumulated experinces of the Cage and soulless antics add up to that too.
Both brothers are a sum total of their experiences - individual and joint.

euphonious_glow February 8 2011, 05:14:19 UTC

I read this, then I rewatched the RoboSam scenes from 6.01 (only one of the first half's eps that I've saved), then I watched the Sam scenes from 6.12.

To me, there is a world of difference in the way Sam's acting now. I took his reaction at the end of the episode to be a sign of character growth, that perhaps he is beginning to move past the anger that has always driven him.

However, your post did bring up some new questions for me to consider. There's a lot the brothers still have to talk about, though I consider that more of an issue of the writing than the characterization.

I would admit that Lucifer could possibly portray a more convincing Sam. But I think Cas would have felt it if Sam's soul wasn't Sam's ( ... )

water_fowl182 February 8 2011, 06:01:07 UTC

I think I tried to point out that I by no means *equate* RoboSam and the Sam of this episode or vice versa. And I do agree that the narrative intent was, most likely, to showcase the difference. But I, as an individual viewer, did find some of this episode Sam's emotional reactions a bit... lacking. Which given half a season of character's specific history makes me keep in mind the possibility of authorial intent. Maybe I'm just paranoid like that ( ... )