Monday Meta
Today's Monday Meta is going to venture into territory that may be uncomfortable for some of you: specifically, incest.
Bear with me for a second. I'm not judging people's tastes in fiction one way or the other. I know a lot of you hate incest fics with a fiery passion equal to a thousand blazing suns...I know others of you can't get enough of it.
Also, I'm not talking about John in this equation, because while again, I'm not judging those who have a thing for fics pairing John with either (or both) of the boys, it has to be seriously AU before I'll personally go seeking that kind of thing out - I really strongly DO NOT believe that Henriksen's comment in Jus in Bello had anything to do with reality. (Even then, that's a personal preference, and I'll admit that I've read a couple that aren't really even all that AU and they didn't squick me too badly.)
So don't go hitting your back buttons just yet - I'm confining this discussion to Sam and Dean, and confining it to the plausibility part of the discussion, as well as the *why* of fangirls who have a kink for it. Because there's NOTHING wrong with exploring it in fanfic, yo. Period.
First off, I was going to post about this today anyway because I recently watched a Netflix-provided collection of short films on gay issue topics, and one of them, to my surprise (and delight) was a film about two young men who are romantically connected, whom we learn at the very end of the film are *brothers*. OMG. "Canonical" incest - not that these two were Sam and Dean by any stretch, but because they were established to be an incestuous couple by the script. And they did have a very fraternal feel to the relationship--it was as much about roughhousing and teasing one another as it was about tenderness.
So this brought my thoughts to the Wincestuous possibilities in Supernatural. And then this morning, browsing my flist, I came across this excellent post by kitsune13, who is among other things a scholar of taboo topics and their treatment in fanfiction. She completed her dissertation on HP fanfiction, with a section on incest and in particular twincest, in fact. Even if you hate Wincest (or incest in general), I urge you to read her post. It has a lot of cogent points to make about why the situation satisfies her particular kinks.
Those reasons may or may not apply to others who seek out incest, but the reasons she cites make a heck of a lot of sense when applied to Sam and Dean's specific case.
"They live in each other's pocket" she observes - and we definitely saw that brought home in "Mystery Spot." Personal space? What personal space? What's that?
"They know just about everything about each other. They are very intimate." Yup. And Yup.
In Sam and Dean's case, there literally was no one else they could let in, no one they could count on, no one they could trust or who had any consistency in their lives. Heck, John wasn't even around that much, and when he was he was probably pretty distracted (possibly drunk, too, your John mileage may vary). To top it off, there are good reasons they have to be so closed off and unsocialized compared to their peers. That claustrophobic *brother* vibe is part of what everyone -- especially anyone who loves wee!chesters -- picks up on in the show. Adding an undertone of sexual tension (unresolved or not) heightens the sense that they are everything to each other, including a lover.
"But Dean's a playah" I hear you cry. Yes. And that's something that Wincest authors need to resolve. But there are a lot of ways to do that. Which is where UST (unresolved sexual tension) comes into play. It can be, as Catja says in her post, "the final frontier," the one boundary they don't want to cross. Or it can be a source of jealousy. Or it could be that because Dean's (and Sam's, but let's admit that Sam was probably not the smooth operator Dean is or was) playing the field with sweet young things was not viewed by either of them as a threat to the "real" relationship they share.
But - and here's where I do have a sekrit passing thought about why there could have been incest during their formative years - there's also the whole question of how kids learn their sexuality. How do they learn to kiss? How do they learn to stimulate? What percentage of boys will either jerk off together or mutually masturbate? It's not necessarily casual, but it's not uncommon, either. If a guy has a "best friend" it's not necessarily a stretch to think that they'd watch some purloined porn together. But who did Dean have to share that with? Who did Sam have? No one except each other. And no one to tell them it's hinky, either.
Okay, practically speaking, they probably had enough clues from TV, movies, and the few people who got close enough to influence them that they probably would have realized they were doing something taboo. But.
I don't have any siblings, but I know that I practiced kissing long before I was ever in a situation where I was doing it "for real" with a boy. I know boys operate a little differently, but they still have the same hangups about being able to engage in sexual activity without looking like they don't know what they're doing - in fact, probably in some ways, worse than girls, because our male-centric western mores tell us that boys are supposed to be more "experienced" than girls.
So I can definitely imagine some sort of scenario that begins along the lines of "Hey, Sam, come here; I want to try something." Or a scenario that begins with Sam asking "Dean, what does ____ feel like?" or similarly asking for advice before a date, or something ostensibly heteronormal, and in the course of this absolutely innocent knowledge-seeking, the boys accidentally cross a line that then leaves them both a little embarrassed, a little squicked, even, but incredibly relieved when it doesn't cause either one of them to pull away any emotional or fraternal support.
Do I think it happened "for real?" Meh. It doesn't really matter. It's plausible. And that's what fanfic is all about: exploring the possible *and* the impossible.
I mean, there are lots of ways to go AU: John didn't die. Ben really is Dean's son. Meg is the new Big Bad. There are lots of ways to read canon--just look at all the different interpretations about John that are out there. So there are LOTS of ways to imagine how their childhood and adolescence and especially their sexual development occurred.
There's one last objection that I'll address, and that's Dean's sense of responsibility to Sam as his surrogate parent. Yup. That's a big obstacle. And in a way, it feeds into what C's talking about in her post. (What? You still haven't read it? GO. What are you waiting for?) It's another VERY GOOD REASON not to act upon any sort of urge or impulse to "Corrupt" Sam - and a lot of Wincest fics address that very source of conflict as a major barrier. Personally, I don't think it's something that would have occurred to Dean in quite that way. Especially if any incestuous encounter began as something more innocent, or even as something more exploratory, I don't think Dean would have stopped and thought, "But no! I can't! I'm his protector!" Because for one thing, I don't think Dean could have articulated his role in Sam's life very clearly. "Brother" to him is synonymous with all the other things he does: protector, care-giver, etc. But we've also seen that he makes no bones about not being Sam's nursemaid and doesn't deliver his care in a very maternal way. He's all guy in that sense. So there's not the kind of parental thought process (and I don't think it qualifies as a power imbalance, either, not even if Dean's 18 and Sam's only 14) that would make him think he's doing something horribly wrong. Taboo, perhaps, but wrong?
The other side of that coin is that for Dean to feel like he's betraying his role as Sam's protector would require Dean to also think of his actions as a deliberate seduction. And that's a whole other kettle of fish, not one at all related to an "accidental" incestuous incident. Seduction presupposes that one partner knows what he's doing and is enticing the more innocent partner to lascivious acts. I submit that neither of them was probably all that experienced if and when anything did occur. As I said, in my mind it's much more likely that Dean was *trying* to build up some experience he could use...on GIRLS.
And if this is still squicky, well, sorry. As I said, it's not for everyone. But it *is* one of the complicated possibilities of their upbringing, and as such, it can be handled very realistically if one wishes to do so.
A final, final thought: I know someone's going to comment and say, "Yes, but in most Wincest fics, they *don't* approach it realistically." Well, in a lot of them, they don't. But I think a lot of the wee!chester-y ones are certainly more about the kinds of UST-issues that Katja is talking about than the flat-out, "Yeah, so?" fics. And even in those....well...that's okay, too. The thing about same-sex incest is it's not like there are going to be any three-eyed hemophiliac kids coming out of the union. For that matter, given how sociopathic they are (and yes, they ARE), I even have a hard time believing that saying, "Yeah, so?" can't feel realistic, depending on how it's handled.
So in conclusion: how do children learn to indulge in sexual play? How do they form their ideas of what is and isn't acceptable? The answer is: their peers. And who did Sam and Dean have as peers? Each other.
One thing I'll put out there for the comments to this: I don't want to hear "But it's not canon!" So the fuck what? It's not your canon. It may not be Kripke's canon. Fans have the right to disagree with even the creators over how to interpret the details and the subtext. And no, this is NOT about "turning them gay" - because 99% of folks who write slash don't make a conscious decision whether or not to see the characters as gay (or even gay for each other) - they just *do* see the character that way. Just like you can interpret a character as a red wine drinker or the father of seven. Person A seeing the characters as gay in no way changes, affects, or diminishes from Person B seeing them as straight. And while I'm on the subject, remember that I'm not talking about the execution of the concept in fanfic - only its plausibility in a situation that would remain consistent with canon as we know it.
Okay. Rant over. I'm glad I got that out of my system.
ETA: For more on this topic, see an excellent post by psycholibrarian Here.
Bear with me for a second. I'm not judging people's tastes in fiction one way or the other. I know a lot of you hate incest fics with a fiery passion equal to a thousand blazing suns...I know others of you can't get enough of it.
Also, I'm not talking about John in this equation, because while again, I'm not judging those who have a thing for fics pairing John with either (or both) of the boys, it has to be seriously AU before I'll personally go seeking that kind of thing out - I really strongly DO NOT believe that Henriksen's comment in Jus in Bello had anything to do with reality. (Even then, that's a personal preference, and I'll admit that I've read a couple that aren't really even all that AU and they didn't squick me too badly.)
So don't go hitting your back buttons just yet - I'm confining this discussion to Sam and Dean, and confining it to the plausibility part of the discussion, as well as the *why* of fangirls who have a kink for it. Because there's NOTHING wrong with exploring it in fanfic, yo. Period.
First off, I was going to post about this today anyway because I recently watched a Netflix-provided collection of short films on gay issue topics, and one of them, to my surprise (and delight) was a film about two young men who are romantically connected, whom we learn at the very end of the film are *brothers*. OMG. "Canonical" incest - not that these two were Sam and Dean by any stretch, but because they were established to be an incestuous couple by the script. And they did have a very fraternal feel to the relationship--it was as much about roughhousing and teasing one another as it was about tenderness.
So this brought my thoughts to the Wincestuous possibilities in Supernatural. And then this morning, browsing my flist, I came across this excellent post by kitsune13, who is among other things a scholar of taboo topics and their treatment in fanfiction. She completed her dissertation on HP fanfiction, with a section on incest and in particular twincest, in fact. Even if you hate Wincest (or incest in general), I urge you to read her post. It has a lot of cogent points to make about why the situation satisfies her particular kinks.
Those reasons may or may not apply to others who seek out incest, but the reasons she cites make a heck of a lot of sense when applied to Sam and Dean's specific case.
"They live in each other's pocket" she observes - and we definitely saw that brought home in "Mystery Spot." Personal space? What personal space? What's that?
"They know just about everything about each other. They are very intimate." Yup. And Yup.
In Sam and Dean's case, there literally was no one else they could let in, no one they could count on, no one they could trust or who had any consistency in their lives. Heck, John wasn't even around that much, and when he was he was probably pretty distracted (possibly drunk, too, your John mileage may vary). To top it off, there are good reasons they have to be so closed off and unsocialized compared to their peers. That claustrophobic *brother* vibe is part of what everyone -- especially anyone who loves wee!chesters -- picks up on in the show. Adding an undertone of sexual tension (unresolved or not) heightens the sense that they are everything to each other, including a lover.
"But Dean's a playah" I hear you cry. Yes. And that's something that Wincest authors need to resolve. But there are a lot of ways to do that. Which is where UST (unresolved sexual tension) comes into play. It can be, as Catja says in her post, "the final frontier," the one boundary they don't want to cross. Or it can be a source of jealousy. Or it could be that because Dean's (and Sam's, but let's admit that Sam was probably not the smooth operator Dean is or was) playing the field with sweet young things was not viewed by either of them as a threat to the "real" relationship they share.
But - and here's where I do have a sekrit passing thought about why there could have been incest during their formative years - there's also the whole question of how kids learn their sexuality. How do they learn to kiss? How do they learn to stimulate? What percentage of boys will either jerk off together or mutually masturbate? It's not necessarily casual, but it's not uncommon, either. If a guy has a "best friend" it's not necessarily a stretch to think that they'd watch some purloined porn together. But who did Dean have to share that with? Who did Sam have? No one except each other. And no one to tell them it's hinky, either.
Okay, practically speaking, they probably had enough clues from TV, movies, and the few people who got close enough to influence them that they probably would have realized they were doing something taboo. But.
I don't have any siblings, but I know that I practiced kissing long before I was ever in a situation where I was doing it "for real" with a boy. I know boys operate a little differently, but they still have the same hangups about being able to engage in sexual activity without looking like they don't know what they're doing - in fact, probably in some ways, worse than girls, because our male-centric western mores tell us that boys are supposed to be more "experienced" than girls.
So I can definitely imagine some sort of scenario that begins along the lines of "Hey, Sam, come here; I want to try something." Or a scenario that begins with Sam asking "Dean, what does ____ feel like?" or similarly asking for advice before a date, or something ostensibly heteronormal, and in the course of this absolutely innocent knowledge-seeking, the boys accidentally cross a line that then leaves them both a little embarrassed, a little squicked, even, but incredibly relieved when it doesn't cause either one of them to pull away any emotional or fraternal support.
Do I think it happened "for real?" Meh. It doesn't really matter. It's plausible. And that's what fanfic is all about: exploring the possible *and* the impossible.
I mean, there are lots of ways to go AU: John didn't die. Ben really is Dean's son. Meg is the new Big Bad. There are lots of ways to read canon--just look at all the different interpretations about John that are out there. So there are LOTS of ways to imagine how their childhood and adolescence and especially their sexual development occurred.
There's one last objection that I'll address, and that's Dean's sense of responsibility to Sam as his surrogate parent. Yup. That's a big obstacle. And in a way, it feeds into what C's talking about in her post. (What? You still haven't read it? GO. What are you waiting for?) It's another VERY GOOD REASON not to act upon any sort of urge or impulse to "Corrupt" Sam - and a lot of Wincest fics address that very source of conflict as a major barrier. Personally, I don't think it's something that would have occurred to Dean in quite that way. Especially if any incestuous encounter began as something more innocent, or even as something more exploratory, I don't think Dean would have stopped and thought, "But no! I can't! I'm his protector!" Because for one thing, I don't think Dean could have articulated his role in Sam's life very clearly. "Brother" to him is synonymous with all the other things he does: protector, care-giver, etc. But we've also seen that he makes no bones about not being Sam's nursemaid and doesn't deliver his care in a very maternal way. He's all guy in that sense. So there's not the kind of parental thought process (and I don't think it qualifies as a power imbalance, either, not even if Dean's 18 and Sam's only 14) that would make him think he's doing something horribly wrong. Taboo, perhaps, but wrong?
The other side of that coin is that for Dean to feel like he's betraying his role as Sam's protector would require Dean to also think of his actions as a deliberate seduction. And that's a whole other kettle of fish, not one at all related to an "accidental" incestuous incident. Seduction presupposes that one partner knows what he's doing and is enticing the more innocent partner to lascivious acts. I submit that neither of them was probably all that experienced if and when anything did occur. As I said, in my mind it's much more likely that Dean was *trying* to build up some experience he could use...on GIRLS.
And if this is still squicky, well, sorry. As I said, it's not for everyone. But it *is* one of the complicated possibilities of their upbringing, and as such, it can be handled very realistically if one wishes to do so.
A final, final thought: I know someone's going to comment and say, "Yes, but in most Wincest fics, they *don't* approach it realistically." Well, in a lot of them, they don't. But I think a lot of the wee!chester-y ones are certainly more about the kinds of UST-issues that Katja is talking about than the flat-out, "Yeah, so?" fics. And even in those....well...that's okay, too. The thing about same-sex incest is it's not like there are going to be any three-eyed hemophiliac kids coming out of the union. For that matter, given how sociopathic they are (and yes, they ARE), I even have a hard time believing that saying, "Yeah, so?" can't feel realistic, depending on how it's handled.
So in conclusion: how do children learn to indulge in sexual play? How do they form their ideas of what is and isn't acceptable? The answer is: their peers. And who did Sam and Dean have as peers? Each other.
One thing I'll put out there for the comments to this: I don't want to hear "But it's not canon!" So the fuck what? It's not your canon. It may not be Kripke's canon. Fans have the right to disagree with even the creators over how to interpret the details and the subtext. And no, this is NOT about "turning them gay" - because 99% of folks who write slash don't make a conscious decision whether or not to see the characters as gay (or even gay for each other) - they just *do* see the character that way. Just like you can interpret a character as a red wine drinker or the father of seven. Person A seeing the characters as gay in no way changes, affects, or diminishes from Person B seeing them as straight. And while I'm on the subject, remember that I'm not talking about the execution of the concept in fanfic - only its plausibility in a situation that would remain consistent with canon as we know it.
Okay. Rant over. I'm glad I got that out of my system.
ETA: For more on this topic, see an excellent post by psycholibrarian Here.