(no subject)
[03:23] YesThisIsAPC: I can't figure out how the crafting system in a steampunk MMO would work
[03:28] YesThisIsAPC: Like, an engineering thing
[03:28] YesThisIsAPC: I'd prefer it if most of the stuff you could craft would have an immediate use
[03:29] YesThisIsAPC: unlike WoW which is 100 junk items/parts for every 1 useable item
[03:29] YesThisIsAPC: and of those useable items, only 10 are actually... useful
[03:33] YesThisIsAPC: :x
[03:36] CasielleRO: I think it should work to a greater whole thing
[03:36] CasielleRO: possibly utilize a spore-esque system
[03:36] YesThisIsAPC: like endgame events for professions?
[03:36] YesThisIsAPC: ...
[03:36] YesThisIsAPC: you lost me
[03:36] CasielleRO: as in
[03:36] CasielleRO: look, the average machine is made of several parts
[03:37] CasielleRO: a bit of player freedom as to what those parts add up to, a cap on how complex the machine is allowed to be and what parts you are allowed to make based on level
[03:37] CasielleRO: and generally instead of making it go to fucking 300something make it like 50 or 100 or something instead
[03:38] CasielleRO: give each part an incentive to make it instead of excessive grinding
[03:38] YesThisIsAPC: yeah
[03:38] YesThisIsAPC: that's the problem I have in WoW
[03:38] CasielleRO: a character level cap for how high a profession level you can have
[03:38] YesThisIsAPC: 90% of your parts are "GENERIC COPPER BOLT"
[03:39] CasielleRO: yeah. instead of making levelling the skill the point, make character design the point
[03:39] CasielleRO: you would have an extensive number of potentials for what you could make and what sort of use they'd have
[03:39] CasielleRO: as should be the case in a steampunk MMO
[03:40] CasielleRO: to elaborate on the spore comparison, say you could design a gauntlet. depending on the character level, you would have a certain set of aspects you could add to that gauntlet
[03:41] CasielleRO: each aspect would have a certain value that, when added up, would prevent you from adding more to that gauntlet
[03:42] YesThisIsAPC: yeah, I was thinking of something similar to enchanting, but without the whole "hey, ONLY ONE"
[03:42] YesThisIsAPC: and with a more modular system to it
[03:42] YesThisIsAPC: "I have no use for this, *replace* there"
[03:42] CasielleRO: I think referring to WoW in this case will severely limit what you can and cannot do here
[03:42] CasielleRO: yeah
[03:43] CasielleRO: that's a good idea, actually. instead of in five levels your goggles becoming obsolete
[03:43] YesThisIsAPC: the only other MMO I have to compare against is ultima online.
[03:43] YesThisIsAPC: yeah
[03:43] CasielleRO: you can change and add to the same pair of goggles as you go along
[03:43] CasielleRO: which is another wankish part of steampunk, improving on something you like
[03:43] YesThisIsAPC: Hell, add an aesthetic element as well. Make gear upgrading more a matter of changing things you have rather than outright replacing them
[03:43] CasielleRO: changing it as need fits instead of tossing something aside to get a new, better one
[03:44] YesThisIsAPC: where different gear types more fall into the realm of how much or how you can change them
[03:44] YesThisIsAPC: obviously goggles would have less expansion capability than a helmet, but they could have a different set of ways TO expand them
[03:44] CasielleRO: and the point system would not just keep people from overpowering at lower levels, but give incentive to keep the same thing around and improve it as levels were gained
[03:44] CasielleRO: yeah
[03:45] CasielleRO: and combining should be possible too, within reason
[03:45] CasielleRO: take some goggles you've been working on for a few levels, and combine it with a helmet
[03:45] YesThisIsAPC: I'd kinda like a mastery system, in a way, on top of this
[03:45] CasielleRO: this goes for items you've found, though in a steampunk MMO I think finding gear should be severely downplayed, if available at all
[03:45] YesThisIsAPC: yeah
[03:45] CasielleRO: mastery? howso?
[03:46] YesThisIsAPC: Well, one thing that bothers me in EVERY MMO WITH CRAFTING ANYTHING EVER is that you kinda get stuck at some points
[03:46] YesThisIsAPC: where you have to choose a specific style of crafting
[03:46] YesThisIsAPC: I'd kinda like it where you could potentially go partially down multiple paths, or all the way down a single path
[03:47] CasielleRO: I think there needs to be an extremely broad array of options available for engineering, that goes beyond the character and goes into realms of things like furniture, transportation, housing, animals... WoW tried to do it, but it just kinda got wrecked under their kinda narrow and tedious creation system
[03:47] CasielleRO: exactly, that is a great idea
[03:47] YesThisIsAPC: yeah
[03:47] CasielleRO: of course, you'd have to devote time to everything, and reaching the end of a path should be very difficult
[03:47] YesThisIsAPC: engineering in WoW got a lot of novelty shit, but it does peter out
[03:47] YesThisIsAPC: yeah
[03:47] YesThisIsAPC: and at the end of the path, I'd much prefer if it opened up a LOT of options
[03:48] YesThisIsAPC: rather than just "Hey, here's one thing."
[03:48] CasielleRO: but the option to reach the end of all paths should be theoretically available
[03:48] CasielleRO: the only problem is that it'd flood the market
[03:48] YesThisIsAPC: "I'm a fucking genius, I should get more than... dancing hood ornament?"
[03:48] CasielleRO: there might need to be a version of soulbinding items, just so that you don't end up with a lot of lazy people buying the best of the best from people with no lives who grind through all the paths
[03:49] CasielleRO: exactly
[03:49] YesThisIsAPC: yeah
[03:49] YesThisIsAPC: Or even have a really arbitrary system in place to lock it down
[03:49] CasielleRO: well plus, if it's a create-your-own sort of thing, then at the end of the path you'd have essentially infinite options for what you wanted to make
[03:49] YesThisIsAPC: like if you make something, you can't just put it on the public market
[03:50] YesThisIsAPC: you have to give it to somebody and they are the only person with that that can use it
[03:50] CasielleRO: like, goggles with giant spider legs that walk you to where you want? illogical, yes, silly, very, but you can do it because you are the fucking god of headgear.
[03:50] YesThisIsAPC: man
[03:50] YesThisIsAPC: just sayin
[03:50] YesThisIsAPC: but that's really more of a belt.
[03:50] YesThisIsAPC: Seriously.
[03:50] YesThisIsAPC: Spiderbelt.
[03:50] YesThisIsAPC: with you just flailing around
[03:50] CasielleRO: yes, but there's some sort of alluring aspect there if you can wear it on your head instead
[03:51] CasielleRO: spiderbelt's the first thought, and that'd be a say, level 20ish item
[03:51] YesThisIsAPC: the trick comes down to though
[03:51] CasielleRO: but spidergoggles
[03:51] CasielleRO: that'd be a level 50 for sure
[03:51] YesThisIsAPC: that it becomes an issue of bandwidth
[03:51] CasielleRO: ah, yeah
[03:51] YesThisIsAPC: since you can't give the player too much
[03:51] CasielleRO: all of the different creations roaming around, it'd kill.
[03:51] YesThisIsAPC: I mean, guns and the like? A player could easily handle that
[03:52] YesThisIsAPC: but with legs and that, they'd have to be fixed items
[03:52] CasielleRO: I think the solution in that would be a limit on what you can carry with you and having player zones
[03:52] CasielleRO: kind of in a guild wars way
[03:52] YesThisIsAPC: yeah, but then you lose the "LOOK WHAT I CAN DO! MOM! LOOK! LOOK MOM! LOOOOOOOOOOK! MOOOOOOM!"
[03:53] CasielleRO: well no, you can have gear you wear, or a vehicle you take out with you
[03:53] CasielleRO: and there can be sorts of snapshot images of what you generated in the horizon
[03:53] CasielleRO: like, I'm talking entire districts
[03:53] CasielleRO: cul-de-sacs of people's homes that don't load unless they're online and they either let you enter when you like, or invite you in
[03:54] YesThisIsAPC: well, the trick with player homes is that you can load the houses just fine
[03:54] CasielleRO: but there's a limit to what the actual character can wear
[03:54] YesThisIsAPC: UO did this on dialup
[03:54] CasielleRO: yeah
[03:54] YesThisIsAPC: in 1996
[03:54] CasielleRO: indeedy
[03:55] YesThisIsAPC: All you have to do is make homes expire after X amount of months if a player doesn't log in
[03:55] YesThisIsAPC: let them retain some property rights and a house template so they don't get fucked over, but they'll need a new location if the old one gets taken
[03:56] YesThisIsAPC: basically I kinda want a dark cloud MMO.
[03:56] CasielleRO: in the case of a monthly payment system, I think that would allow it to renew as long as the player's subscription kept going. if the play was no longer subscribed and hadn't logged in in, say, a year or two, this would cause it to expire. considering creation is pretty much the entire point of the game, allowing homes to expire that easily would be a huge turnoff
[03:56] CasielleRO: that is a great idea
[03:56] CasielleRO: though I'd like something a bit more logical and hands-on than DC
[03:57] YesThisIsAPC: that leads to a pretty severe population problem, unless you make houses and property prohibitively expensive
[03:57] YesThisIsAPC: ala UO
[03:57] CasielleRO: at the very least, allow a kind of inventory system so that the player doesn't lose their creations in the process
[03:57] CasielleRO: I was thinking it'd be server based, like WoW
[03:57] YesThisIsAPC: well, all MMOs are like that now, really
[03:58] CasielleRO: but extensively server based?
[03:58] YesThisIsAPC: yeah
[04:00] CasielleRO: how can I describe it, though? it would have to defy a dimension of reality, which MMOs can do, but you would masically go down a street and choose from a text list which group of houses you wanted to visit. the actual player home data is stored on the player's computer, all that's stored on the MMO server is the snapshot
(I chopped up bits around this area because I got sidetracked referring to MMOs with servers here that handled housing)
[04:05] YesThisIsAPC: I'm willing to bet that I could store the relevent load-on-player-sight housing stuff for 100 homes in maybe 20k of data
[04:06] CasielleRO: yes, very likely
[04:06] CasielleRO: and that is fantastic for the system I was thinking
[04:06] YesThisIsAPC: and that I could optimize it so that an overhead flight would load maybe 4k
[04:06] CasielleRO: indeed
[04:07] YesThisIsAPC: hell, with a phasing system for point-to-point flight, I could make it so the server sends next to no data at all to the player while in flight
[04:07] CasielleRO: I think it would be more crafting-focused than fighting-focused, which is awesome to me, but missions and such that took one out of town or to other towns would be available and would reward better materials and cash for materials
[04:08] CasielleRO: that would be very good
[04:08] CasielleRO: it might require that same player-based system for missions, which I actually feel pretty mixed about
[04:08] CasielleRO: I like the idea of being able to meet players while out doing things outside of town
[04:09] CasielleRO: and damn if guild wars didn't feel empty
[04:10] CasielleRO: if it could be possible to choose a certain server to visit that map on, that would be the best idea, and just load the character's immediate data - what they look like and what they're wearing/carrying
[04:10] CasielleRO: that would at least prevent overcrowding of areas
[04:10] YesThisIsAPC: yeah
[04:10] YesThisIsAPC: that's why I fucking HATE guild wars
[04:11] YesThisIsAPC: basically though, you'd only be loading playerdata for whatever zone you're in, that's how most modern MMOs handle it
[04:11] CasielleRO: yeah
[04:11] CasielleRO: mostly it's just the annoying farming aspect of games like WoW
[04:12] YesThisIsAPC: ugh,yeah
[04:12] CasielleRO: where it's virtually impossible to complete quests or get materials in some areas
[04:12] CasielleRO: because it's such a hotspot
(I cut out a bit here about WoW professions and how they have changed in the expansion)
[04:16] YesThisIsAPC: but yeah, I'd much prefer an open world system where you could see everyone where you are
[04:16] YesThisIsAPC: rather than everything being "well, you can see your GROUP"
[04:18] CasielleRO: exactly
[04:18] CasielleRO: I think a mix wouldn't be a bad idea, an option
[04:18] YesThisIsAPC: well, I can see that for some zones and the like
[04:18] YesThisIsAPC: where it would add something that only you and the people you brought would be there
[04:19] CasielleRO: I think largely you'd be given a lot of lists and choices
[04:19] CasielleRO: say to start with there were three to five different servers you could choose from when you left a town
[04:20] CasielleRO: or you could choose to just go it privately based on your PC
[04:21] YesThisIsAPC: I think though, the amount of choices you get should be limited though
[04:21] YesThisIsAPC: since at some point the player just goes "wait? What? I'm confused and stupid"
[04:21] CasielleRO: well, yeah
[04:22] CasielleRO: basically we'd have a color system
[04:22] CasielleRO: low density to high density, red to green
[04:22] CasielleRO: rather, green to red
[04:22] CasielleRO: with one option "go alone" or "barren world" in white
[04:23] CasielleRO: it' be a learning curve, but WoW was certainly a learning curve as well
[04:23] YesThisIsAPC: yeah
[04:23] YesThisIsAPC: plus it leads to the social element being there, but not forced
[04:23] YesThisIsAPC: which is one thing I hate
(I cut out a part between these two about how hard it is to navigate the fort design in WoW)
[04:25] YesThisIsAPC: see, one thing I'd like is an NPC guide sort of thing
[04:25] YesThisIsAPC: like in WoW they tell you where they are
[04:25] YesThisIsAPC: but you can get lost
[04:25] YesThisIsAPC: I'd like it if he just sets you to follow and then RUNS to the guy
[04:26] YesThisIsAPC: nobody else sees this, they just see you running
[04:27] YesThisIsAPC: this way you learn the exact way there
[04:28] CasielleRO: yeah, that'd be good
[04:29] CasielleRO: have an option for that
[04:29] CasielleRO: or maybe just a line on a map if you felt the need
[04:29] YesThisIsAPC: yeah, but map lines are werid to implement if something has multiple levels
[04:32] CasielleRO: different colors for the level it's on seems simple enough
[04:32] YesThisIsAPC: either that or, you know
[04:32] YesThisIsAPC: put npcs in a place where it makes sense and it's easy to find them
[04:32] CasielleRO: never
[04:32] YesThisIsAPC: One thing I like about quest trackers in WoW is that it tells me where the start and end npcs are
[04:33] YesThisIsAPC: if somebody tells me where a guy is for a quest, I should know where that guy is
[04:53] CasielleRO: exactly
[04:53] CasielleRO: though I think the system could be done away with mostly
[04:53] CasielleRO: just have a central office in each town that will give you quests
[04:54] YesThisIsAPC: yes
[04:54] YesThisIsAPC: I would LOVE a predominant sort of "He gives you the quest"
[04:54] YesThisIsAPC: with a couple of random people strung about you can do quests for for special bonus rewards
[04:59] CasielleRO: yeah
[04:59] YesThisIsAPC: or at least make quest progression logical
[04:59] YesThisIsAPC: so you never have to SEARCH for quests
[04:59] CasielleRO: but just generally scattering them about is a pain
[04:59] YesThisIsAPC: yeah
[05:00] CasielleRO: at the very least, have the central office tell you where you can find certain people would be better than nothing, though I think a mission board of a kind is the best system for an MMO like the one we're talking about here
[05:01] CasielleRO: also have a section of it devoted to missions designed by players, that'd actually be cool
[05:01] YesThisIsAPC: yeah
[05:01] YesThisIsAPC: but that'd be hard to regulate
[05:01] YesThisIsAPC: "Kill a boar"
[05:01] YesThisIsAPC: "BRAJAZILLION EXP"
[05:01] CasielleRO: not so much. you wouldn't be able to throw up anything, it'd cost money and there'd be different sections based on the reward
[05:02] CasielleRO: players would not be able to offer EXP or modify creatures beyond potential placement
[05:03] CasielleRO: it would be out of pocket mostly, something for players who reached higher levels and saw a higher amount of wealth to do
[05:03] CasielleRO: since the main theme of the MMO is creation, this makes sense
[05:03] YesThisIsAPC: yeah
[05:03] YesThisIsAPC: I would like I a hefty amount of player freedom
[05:08] CasielleRO: the unfortunate side-effect is that an MMO of this magnitude and complexity would require a huge budget - something akin to Blizzard proportions
[05:08] YesThisIsAPC: yeah
[05:08] YesThisIsAPC: this isn't really a plan so much as it is brainstorming
[05:09] CasielleRO: and it's still a niche market, unfortunately. I mean sure, most people like steampunk, that even know what it is, they like the general idea of an alternate method of technology
[05:09] YesThisIsAPC: well ideally the selling point is the game itself
[05:09] YesThisIsAPC: the steampunk ends up being more a creation philosophy/aesthetic
[05:10] CasielleRO: yeah
[05:12] YesThisIsAPC: which is really all I want it to be
[05:13] CasielleRO: ah yes, I was reading back through the beginning of this
[05:14] CasielleRO: acquisition of materials would probably be the deciding factor for mst things
[05:14] CasielleRO: most*
[05:14] YesThisIsAPC: well make it an optional gold sink
[05:14] YesThisIsAPC: buy it for lots of money
[05:14] YesThisIsAPC: or find it yourself
[05:14] YesThisIsAPC: for free
[05:14] CasielleRO: so regulating material acquisition would be a huge thing
[05:15] CasielleRO: like, your character can make literally anything, and they shouldn't just be able to make one or three things per level
[05:16] CasielleRO: we want materials hard enough to get so that the character can't just make three or four sets of goggles and hand them out
[05:16] YesThisIsAPC: yeah
[05:16] CasielleRO: but not so hard that the character can't start building non-equipment items fairly early on
[05:16] YesThisIsAPC: yeah
[05:17] YesThisIsAPC: also, I'd like it if maybe your engineering/whatever skill altered the level of your say
[05:17] CasielleRO: personally, I dislike the idea of being able to buy a premade house or piece of equipment in a game like this
[05:17] YesThisIsAPC: explosive power
[05:17] YesThisIsAPC: yeah
[05:17] CasielleRO: well, that would be the point
[05:18] CasielleRO: with a higher level of engineering, more powerful add-ons and more complex configurations would open up
[05:18] YesThisIsAPC: unlike WoW where you built an explosivie and "whatever" it sucks
[05:18] CasielleRO: but I think the engineering level shouldn't directly control how powerful the weapon is, I think it should be entirely item based, with proficiency with that item tied to engineering instead.
[05:19] YesThisIsAPC: well
[05:19] YesThisIsAPC: I would treat it as a minor bonus
[05:19] YesThisIsAPC: I mean, like you could maaaaybe tweak the purity fo what you're using
[05:19] CasielleRO: like how you can have a max damage of like 30dps with a sword?
[05:19] YesThisIsAPC: proficiency?
[05:19] YesThisIsAPC: I'm talking like 5% increases, tops
[05:20] CasielleRO: yes. your proficiency would decide whether you did one damage with a laser cannon or 1000, based on your engineering and the power of the item
[05:20] CasielleRO: how do you mean, tweak the purity?
[05:21] YesThisIsAPC: Well, with things like gunpowder, impurities can arise in the individual material components
[05:21] YesThisIsAPC: a skilled enough chemist could eliminate some of these impurities
[05:21] CasielleRO: ah, a more complexversion of the mining, smelting, prospecting, and smithing skills in WoW would be really good. more hands on, as well
[05:21] YesThisIsAPC: yeah
[05:21] CasielleRO: alchemy too
[05:21] CasielleRO: kind of inclined to think that herbalism doesn't really have a place in a game like this, at least in the WoW sense
[05:22] CasielleRO: though going the next step and offering a woodsmith path would be pretty great
[05:22] YesThisIsAPC: fine, but only if the first thing they can create
[05:22] CasielleRO: steampunk, but instead of bronze you've got wood
[05:22] YesThisIsAPC: is a log they hit things with
[05:22] CasielleRO: yes
[05:23] YesThisIsAPC: "ME SMART"
[05:23] CasielleRO: then it evolves to log armor and log complex machinery
[05:23] YesThisIsAPC: so...
[05:23] YesThisIsAPC: wood technology?
[05:23] CasielleRO: somehow that seems really cool to me
[05:23] CasielleRO: yes
[05:23] CasielleRO: I think magic should be completely absent from the game
[05:23] YesThisIsAPC: YES>
[05:23] CasielleRO: there is no place for anything of that kind
[05:24] CasielleRO: in a game based around constantly improving technology, what point is there in magic?
[05:24] YesThisIsAPC: I am totally cool with orcs, dwarves, whatever the fuck
[05:24] YesThisIsAPC: as long as they use tech too
[05:24] CasielleRO: I am not cool with orcs or dwarves, they're overly played fantasy mechanism, don't even start me on elves.
[05:24] CasielleRO: BUT
[05:25] CasielleRO: for the sake of freedom
[05:25] CasielleRO: people won't be limited to races
[05:25] YesThisIsAPC: I'm willing to drop orcs, elves would never be existing
[05:25] YesThisIsAPC: EVER
[05:25] YesThisIsAPC: fuck elves
[05:25] YesThisIsAPC: but I need my dwarf fix
[05:25] CasielleRO: you are addicted to dwarves, snap the fuck out of it man!
[05:25] CasielleRO: like I was saying, though
[05:26] CasielleRO: allowing people customizable characters as far as height, width, facial hair, ears and tails and horns, skin color and maybe even optional fur color, then face templates
[05:26] CasielleRO: I would be down with that
[05:28] CasielleRO: basically like going into the human character creation screen in WoW, having sliding bars on an X and Y axis for height and width, perhaps even a muscle to fat ratio sub slider for width, and then having all the template options from the other races there
[05:28] YesThisIsAPC: it'd be easy enough to implement, really
[05:28] CasielleRO: instead of dividing it by race
[05:28] YesThisIsAPC: and hell, give them race templates, at least
[05:28] YesThisIsAPC: for the people too lazy/suck to make their own
[05:28] CasielleRO: yeah, it's basically just consolidating rather than organizing by a specific type
[05:29] CasielleRO: yeah, basically have an "autoroll..." option
[05:29] YesThisIsAPC: you could edit on top of the templates, naturally
[05:29] CasielleRO: then things like hairstyles and faces'd be simple enough to flip through
[05:29] CasielleRO: course
[05:29] YesThisIsAPC: yeah
[05:30] YesThisIsAPC: hairstyles would be kinda hard to implement with a fat slider
[05:31] YesThisIsAPC: also, an easy way to handle bandwidth there? Have it so it stores the player appearance data of people you have on your friend list/see often
[05:31] CasielleRO: actually, if the home was based on a player's computer, they wouldn't have to expire, especially if there was a multiple server thing. maybe the location in game it was at, but if you logged in again you could choose a new location to put it
[05:32] YesThisIsAPC: yeah, that's what I was implying
[05:32] CasielleRO: yeah, I thought that might've been it
[05:32] YesThisIsAPC: if your old location expired and got taken, you'd just plop the house down somewhere else
[05:32] YesThisIsAPC: and you'd go in and "all my stuff is here :D"
[05:32] CasielleRO: I dunno, hair wouldn't be much hairder than equipment
[05:32] YesThisIsAPC: well
[05:32] CasielleRO: harder*
[05:32] YesThisIsAPC: with equipment it's just "scale, rotate"
[05:33] CasielleRO: it's not like all the dimensions of the head change
[05:33] YesThisIsAPC: with hair, and how it falls...
[05:33] YesThisIsAPC: ...
[05:33] CasielleRO: just make it wider as well
[05:33] CasielleRO: believe me, I have seen fat people with thin person hairdos
[05:33] CasielleRO: that was what most of Zohan was
[05:33] YesThisIsAPC: I didn't bother with zohan
[05:33] YesThisIsAPC: because it looked like terrible shit
[05:33] CasielleRO: it still generally falls the same, just to a different scale
[05:33] CasielleRO: kinda
[05:33] CasielleRO: mostly
[05:34] CasielleRO: but the fat ladies with young lady hairstyles were informative
[05:34] CasielleRO: the real problem would be retaining the texture integrity
[05:34] CasielleRO: though that would be a person's choice, I guess
[05:35] YesThisIsAPC: not really, just use a high enough texture quality and mipmapping
[05:35] CasielleRO: I guess
[05:35] CasielleRO: and some of the more complex fanmods in Sims 2 observed character modelling
[05:36] YesThisIsAPC: also, not really an in-game thing
[05:36] YesThisIsAPC: but I would like player created content based on contests and shit
[05:36] YesThisIsAPC: "Make somethign that looks good? Yeah, now it's in the game forever"
[05:36] CasielleRO: yeah, that'd be pretty nice
[05:36] CasielleRO: and also a large part of the player mission thing to me
[05:37] CasielleRO: like team fortress getting its own game after being a fanmod
[05:37] CasielleRO: just when something comes up that looks really cool and draws people's interest, ask the player if we an make it a permanent fixture in the game in some way or another
[05:38] YesThisIsAPC: yeah
[05:38] YesThisIsAPC: and if they say no
[05:38] YesThisIsAPC: we ban them and add it anyway
[05:38] CasielleRO: the best part about a game like this is that it would cut down pretty severely on piracy
[05:38] CasielleRO: there would be little point in private servers
[05:38] YesThisIsAPC: yeah
[05:39] CasielleRO: a really important thing in my mind would be limiting how much was already pre-rendered
[05:40] CasielleRO: like instead of just combining a bunch of templates, you'd have to put a bit more work into each part
[05:40] YesThisIsAPC: yeah, but that'd be a bit hard
[05:40] CasielleRO: the game's point is creation, right?
[05:41] YesThisIsAPC: yeah, but I mean in implementation
[05:43] CasielleRO: I'm not sure what marketing it to people who don't want to put time into creating things would really do anyway. considering the scale of this, we don't want to make any aspect of it as easy to plop out like WoW. we don't want servers getting flooded with dummy farmer characters, or people selling the same variation of Big Badass Weapon that uses all the highest rate parts
[05:43] CasielleRO: well yeah, though just give certain items the same flexibility as character creation
[05:44] CasielleRO: it would have to be at least partly template based
[05:44] YesThisIsAPC: yeah
[05:44] YesThisIsAPC: that's pretty much exactly what I was thinking
[05:45] CasielleRO: but pulling as far away from templates without causing severe flooding of excess content
[05:45] YesThisIsAPC: but we could make so. many. templates
[05:45] CasielleRO: yeah
[05:45] CasielleRO: as long as we're willing to make so many templates
[05:45] YesThisIsAPC: since the only datayou send there is, for simplification
[05:45] YesThisIsAPC: t00123
[05:45] YesThisIsAPC: there's a template, the rest is loaded locally
[05:46] CasielleRO: no limitation on professions you can take
[05:46] YesThisIsAPC: yes.
[05:47] CasielleRO: the only limit is how far you can personally push in each of those
[05:47] CasielleRO: and, not to be cruel, but no player-trading of materials
[05:47] CasielleRO: that would eliminate a lot of wow's hangups right there
[05:47] CasielleRO: basically, have most mats available from vendors who charge a fitting price
[05:48] YesThisIsAPC: exactly
[05:48] CasielleRO: and give the player no way to resell these mats to other players to make a buck
[05:48] YesThisIsAPC: I think I mentioned something to that effect
[05:48] CasielleRO: that solves the terrible economy problem right there
[05:49] CasielleRO: if there was an auction house, don't give a buy-now option, allow a player to only be able to hold a certain number of a specific item at a time, as well as only have a certain number of auctions at a time
[05:49] CasielleRO: we talked about something of a similar nature
[05:50] YesThisIsAPC: the only issue I have with that
[05:51] YesThisIsAPC: is that then you may buy things and not need them later
[05:51] YesThisIsAPC: when the auction ends
[05:55] CasielleRO: maybe allowing appearance modification would be allowed
[05:55] YesThisIsAPC: no
[05:55] YesThisIsAPC: not maybe
[05:55] CasielleRO: but not power modification
[05:55] YesThisIsAPC: definitely.
[05:55] CasielleRO: I mean for creatures and adversaries
[05:55] YesThisIsAPC: hmm... howso in that case?
[05:55] CasielleRO: sorry, was reading back through again
[05:56] CasielleRO: like if you're designing a mission, and you want like the raging naga bitches of ElMadore
[05:56] YesThisIsAPC: ahhh yes
[05:56] YesThisIsAPC: I see what you mean and I fully support it
[05:56] CasielleRO: you'd be allowed to take the snake woman monster, change a few cursory things about her to make her more unique to your campaign
[05:56] CasielleRO: indeedy
[05:57] CasielleRO: missions wouldn't be a quick way to get cash or give cash so much as an indulgence of the GM hobby
[05:58] CasielleRO: I think user created items would be the main rewards
[05:58] CasielleRO: so it would be up to the user's discretion how easy or hard it was to get the prize
[05:58] YesThisIsAPC: maybe have an experience bonus based on an automatic system?
[05:59] CasielleRO: I dunno, I think that can be saved for the main missions
[05:59] YesThisIsAPC: Like something that guages the difficulty of the quest and chooses a reward that way?
[05:59] YesThisIsAPC: actually... I think I kinda like your way better
[05:59] CasielleRO: besides, I don't think we'll be looking at WoW terms of experience with a game like this
[06:00] CasielleRO: it'd be too hard to manage, and with how personal the missions are, probably not a good idea if every joe was trying to complete x or y mission for the EXP
[06:01] CasielleRO: in fact, I'd hazard to say that what would really level you up in this game would be how much time you spent crafting and what you chose to craft
[06:01] CasielleRO: to eliminate entirely the pointless grinding for experience
[06:01] YesThisIsAPC: yeah
[06:01] YesThisIsAPC: also
[06:02] YesThisIsAPC: I'd like to see the elimination of player level disparity as a whole
[06:02] CasielleRO: allowing the character a lot of things to do and explore with each level would be what really made the game worthwhile, not how high a level they were
[06:02] CasielleRO: in what context?
[06:03] YesThisIsAPC: well, FFXI added a new system where if you group with another player, it equalizes your level
[06:03] YesThisIsAPC: so high level characters can quest with low level ones and still ahve incentive to do so
[06:03] YesThisIsAPC: this way, new players would still be able to group with people to get shit done
[06:04] CasielleRO: that's a good idea
[06:05] CasielleRO: I think that would work well
[06:05] CasielleRO: though I don't know if it should work both ways
[06:05] YesThisIsAPC: well, the highest level character gets his level lowered
[06:06] CasielleRO: yeah
[06:06] YesThisIsAPC: but any bonuses he gets scales with his normal level for them
[06:06] CasielleRO: I don't know if that should be
[06:07] CasielleRO: maybe a middle ground there, make it worth the character's while, but not make it as good as if he'd gone out to something his level
[06:08] YesThisIsAPC: well yeah
[06:08] YesThisIsAPC: that's the idea
[06:08] CasielleRO: yeah
[06:08] YesThisIsAPC: make it worth their while, but not like if they did something at their scale
[06:09] CasielleRO: indeedery
[06:09] YesThisIsAPC: it's more so that if the servers get topheavy, you don't have to worry about alienating new players with them not having anyone to play with
[06:09] YesThisIsAPC: which I see in MMOs all too often
[06:10] CasielleRO: in general, I think partying should be a bit more like guilds, in that you can stay connected to the person or people as long as you like
[06:10] CasielleRO: yeah
[06:10] CasielleRO: it's a very good idea, just gotta make sure that it doesn't open a window for abuse
[06:11] YesThisIsAPC: which is the same for everything, really
[06:11] YesThisIsAPC: how do you mean, with the partying system
[06:11] YesThisIsAPC: ?
[06:12] CasielleRO: by leading to people getting overpowered from a sort of "noobtrade" business
[06:13] CasielleRO: like a sort of recruit-a-friend that anybody could do with a lower level character, regardless of affiliation
[06:14] YesThisIsAPC: also, I do want a sort of lore based side thing, just for the added conflict option, but I don't want races tied to it
[06:14] CasielleRO: how do you mean?
[06:15] YesThisIsAPC: faction is a better word than side
[06:15] YesThisIsAPC: but it is 6 in the morning
[06:15] CasielleRO: a story to the world and the things in it would be really great and proper, of course, but I mean, if we do horde vs. alliance or anything I'ma gonna have to put my foot down. factions bug me as is
[06:15] YesThisIsAPC: so FUCK YOU... uh... word knowing
[06:15] YesThisIsAPC: uh
[06:15] YesThisIsAPC: that word
[06:15] YesThisIsAPC: ARTICULATION
[06:16] CasielleRO: I mean, groups like the lesser factions are fine
[06:16] YesThisIsAPC: that's more what I mean
[06:17] CasielleRO: but to have a great divide and one big reason for all the bad and good in the world I kinda just feel would detract
[06:17] YesThisIsAPC: even in WoW that divide makes no sense
[06:17] CasielleRO: I mean, say you had Tinkerstan
[06:18] YesThisIsAPC: I'm talking like, for a WoW comparison, Steamwheedle cartel and Bloodsail
[06:18] CasielleRO: part of the point of missions would be to change your standing with tinkerstand, so you could get mats more cheaply and other town-based bonuses
[06:18] YesThisIsAPC: yeah
[06:19] CasielleRO: that's good, that adds a little bit more reason to play
[06:19] CasielleRO: though rather than having a world in a constant stasis like WoW
[06:19] YesThisIsAPC: except insteal of just a title, you'd get mat discounts and maybe different quests
[06:19] YesThisIsAPC: *-maybe
[06:19] CasielleRO: there would be regular events that players could participate in that would change, grow, or shrink the world
[06:21] CasielleRO: like say tinkerstan grows greatly in power, there could be an event where they send a branch settlement out into the oasis, and for the next month the players that were in good with tinkerstan can contribute money, materials, or designs to the new settlement
[06:21] CasielleRO: they can even work on the town to speed up its progress
[06:22] CasielleRO: in a sort of nonviolent form of competition
[06:22] YesThisIsAPC: yeah
[06:23] CasielleRO: instead of being afraid of change, have things keep changing but remain a sense of balance so that people can still progress
[06:23] CasielleRO: like events like investigating the crystals and then working on a cure to purify azuremyst, that would be one big event
[06:23] CasielleRO: and azuremyst would actually get purified at the end
[06:24] CasielleRO: rather than oop, everything's still bloody red and unhappy
[06:24] YesThisIsAPC: actually, the expansion does that in some areas, thanks to phasing
[06:24] YesThisIsAPC: so if you clear out an area for a questline, the next time you go back, it's empty and all nice and shit
[06:25] CasielleRO: WoW's changes are pretty moot and take ages. I want there to be an actual sense of wonder and accomplishment to the world, and I want the players to have a say in what happens
[06:25] CasielleRO: oh
[06:25] CasielleRO: that kind of changing
[06:25] CasielleRO: sweet
[06:25] YesThisIsAPC: yeah
[06:25] CasielleRO: but is it for every area previously?
[06:25] CasielleRO: or is it just for the LK quests?
[06:25] YesThisIsAPC: just for the LK stuff
[06:26] YesThisIsAPC: because at this point they've really kinda added a bit much to do all that stuff on the old content