Oh, I love this! I don't know when all of these hard & fast "rules of gay" came into being, but they're sure there, aren't they? Though my son loved dressing up, makeup, Tori Amos, singing, dancing and had all girl friends - it honestly never occurred to me that he was gay until he came out. I've never necessarily believed the stereotypes. Had no clue that Adam was gay till I saw the Bradam pics.
about the guys in musicals thingrationalflakeJune 17 2010, 15:10:35 UTC
OK - I thought about how in the Golden Age of cinema Hollywood and Bollywood had one thing in common.
Musicals.
Lots of them.
With Gene Kelly, Fred Astaire and Frank Sinatra. I wasn't there, but I bet nobody assumed those guys were gay. There was, in fact, no public conversation about what gay meant. Then the liberalization of the sixties came along and mentioning homosexuality was no longer taboo. And my guess is, some people were afraid of this new thing that they could not ignore as they used to. They reached for ways to easily identify it, so it would be less this scary amorphous thing. So it wouldn't be their next door neighbour or the mailman being this thing they were told was supposed to be sinful and repulsive. They took things like singing that weren't 'manly' and recategorised them. Latched on to rock, etc as more ~preferable. Searched for labels and applied them stringently.
Re: about the guys in musicals thingzorana84June 17 2010, 15:21:19 UTC
I think there was always a conversation, though it wasn't a public one . But yes the ~cues got a lot easier to label and compartmentlize. But then again rock was very gender-bending all through the sixties and the seventies, so though eventually it was ~reclaimed by the "manly men" it did escape that for a while. You do have a point about musicals though. It is interesting how completely they disappeared off the screens and now only stuff like Chicago gets made.
Re: about the guys in musicals thingrationalflakeJune 17 2010, 15:33:50 UTC
I think they disappeared because popular music became less musicals oriented and more like today's pop scene with the emergence of the Beatles etc. But I do think it's increasing lack of mainstream relevance led to it being appropriated as a cue. And I've noticed the same thing happen with men doing dancepop in the States. And yeah, the conversation being sotto voce led to not well known/widely discussed stereotypes perhaps?
Re: about the guys in musicals thingzorana84June 17 2010, 16:16:57 UTC
well practically the first thing that the Beatles were asked when they came over the US was whether they were homosexual so there was a transference to pop music at that point too, though it would only come to full ~fruition with the boy bands. But yes the lack of mainstream relevance is an excellent point, though of course broadway still flourished, so again neatly categorized.
Oh yes, I totally love that that's happening and waay past time too. I just was struck at how differently different cultures view Adam and his performances/presentation and how the cues that are/were ~obvious to Americans just do not ping for someone from a different cultural perspective, where homosexuality is still coded, but not to such rigid standards that seem to operate in America. Ty for dropping by :D
OMG YOU KNOW HOW MUCH I LOVE THIS, RIGHT? <3333333333333333333
(also, those gifs are made of WIN! \o/)
One of the paradoxes this points out about the U.S. is that our unofficial motto is basically "America! Where we are individualists! IN EXACTLY THE SAME WAY! And if you deviate too much from that, we might just kill you, sorry." Like, we have such this vested interest in spouting off about diversity, but most people want it easily categorized so they can dismiss it better, honestly. It's part of what makes me love Adam so much - he breaks people's brains by not fitting into the boxes they have AND I LOVE IT.
I'm also thinking about all of this, the different presentations of masculinitiy and femininity across different cultures, as a result of the World Cup and the emotions that men display over it and how touchy feeling the players are and the way that makes some American men deeply, deeply uncomfortable. We're all one fandom
( ... )
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Though my son loved dressing up, makeup, Tori Amos, singing, dancing and had all girl friends - it honestly never occurred to me that he was gay until he came out. I've never necessarily believed the stereotypes.
Had no clue that Adam was gay till I saw the Bradam pics.
Excellent post!
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Musicals.
Lots of them.
With Gene Kelly, Fred Astaire and Frank Sinatra. I wasn't there, but I bet nobody assumed those guys were gay. There was, in fact, no public conversation about what gay meant. Then the liberalization of the sixties came along and mentioning homosexuality was no longer taboo. And my guess is, some people were afraid of this new thing that they could not ignore as they used to. They reached for ways to easily identify it, so it would be less this scary amorphous thing. So it wouldn't be their next door neighbour or the mailman being this thing they were told was supposed to be sinful and repulsive. They took things like singing that weren't 'manly' and recategorised them. Latched on to rock, etc as more ~preferable. Searched for labels and applied them stringently.
Reply
Reply
I think they disappeared because popular music became less musicals oriented and more like today's pop scene with the emergence of the Beatles etc. But I do think it's increasing lack of mainstream relevance led to it being appropriated as a cue. And I've noticed the same thing happen with men doing dancepop in the States.
And yeah, the conversation being sotto voce led to not well known/widely discussed stereotypes perhaps?
Reply
Reply
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(also, those gifs are made of WIN! \o/)
One of the paradoxes this points out about the U.S. is that our unofficial motto is basically "America! Where we are individualists! IN EXACTLY THE SAME WAY! And if you deviate too much from that, we might just kill you, sorry." Like, we have such this vested interest in spouting off about diversity, but most people want it easily categorized so they can dismiss it better, honestly. It's part of what makes me love Adam so much - he breaks people's brains by not fitting into the boxes they have AND I LOVE IT.
I'm also thinking about all of this, the different presentations of masculinitiy and femininity across different cultures, as a result of the World Cup and the emotions that men display over it and how touchy feeling the players are and the way that makes some American men deeply, deeply uncomfortable. We're all one fandom ( ... )
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