quick survey

[a_priori]

Consider two (imaginary) students

Comments

[eve_prime]

I think I would consider them equal in most respects, assuming the output of their efforts is equivalently good. However, I would tend to give Barbara the edge in some respects. That is, assuming Alice's current ability to just sit down and work is essentially innate, and not the result of considerable effort to overcome issues, I would think that Barbara's understanding of what it takes to overcome her own inner reluctance and manage herself, her meta-awareness of her own psychology, is superior to an unconscious effortlessness.

Edit - Reading some of the comments below, I realize I should add that I don't feel comfortable generalizing from Alice's performance in this area to others. If she finds herself faced with a task that she's more resistant to, that she can't just sit down and do, will she have strategies for coping? Yet Barbara has shown that she's already faced that issue and resolved it.

[a_priori]

There are two possible ways to think about the point you've made (which is a good point).

1. Barbara is more responsible/a better student as a predictive matter: her self-awareness and proven adaptability make it more probable that she'll respond adequatley to future curveballs, while we simply can't make such predictions about Alice.

2. Barbara is more responsible/a better student as an intrinsic matter: it's just more commendable to effortfully overcome one's own handicaps than to have lacked such handicaps in the first place.

Would you endorse both of those lines?

[a1icey]

i think that 1 is a more legitimate argument, but 2 is valid based on my instincts as well.

[eve_prime]

I would endorse the first, but probably not the second. If "being a good student" is a virtue, then I don't think it would be a virue that's quite in the same league as, say, courage. That is, I'm thinking about how there are two views of courage: not being afraid, and acting despite being afraid. The first doesn't seem like a virtue at all, just a statement of how things are, but the second seems like a considerable virtue. Yet "getting one's work done" doesn't really seem to me to qualify for this kind of distinction.

[flamingjune07]

This is not what you asked, but as someone who is Alice on some days and Barbara on others, I would much rather be Alice.

[a_priori]

That's a good question as well. I wonder if there are arguments for preferring to be Barbara?

[flamingjune07]

The argument for preferring to be Barbara is, as you can see below (and as you intuited when you posted this, I take it), that other people have some attitude(s) that favor Barbara, even when no other information is known.

Personally, I find the notion that Barbara is more responsible than Alice ridiculous -- all we know is that Barbara has a harder time than Alice does. Alice just doesn't provide herself with an opportunity to display that particular skill here, which makes sense, because people should certainly avoid being their own road blocks if they can. The ideal, obviously, is to be responsible and self-aware, and be a natural at whatever the thing is

[flamingjune07]

P.S. My direct answers to your questions are, provided that their work is exactly alike:

1) equal
2) equal
3) Would hire Alice (unless the bribe-self-with-latte thing is indicative of a broader personality difference that makes Barbara a better "fit" for the particular job, or some such)

[a1icey]

sorry, for some reason i switched the names (because i am more like barbara, no doubt)

for the same reason as eve_prime

1) barbara is a better student
2) barbara is more responsible
3)i would hire barbara

[a_priori]

See my comment to eve_prime then: I'm curious how you'd answer as well.

[katranna]

I would think Alice is a better student even though I think I OUGHT to feel they're about equal.

I think Barbara may be more responsible.

I would hire Alice. :-/

[a_priori]

Your response to the first one is interesting. With your own students, have you ever felt bad about a negative assessment you've caught yourself making about one's motivation or discipline?

[greensword]

1. they are equally good students. or rather, my working definition of what makes a "good" student is pretty vague and takes into account the end result more than how the student got there.

2. barbara is more responsible, because she gets her work done despite obstacles. we don't know how alice would respond if obstacles were placed in her way.

3. however, i would hire alice. unless the position allowed for a lot of time in cafes, it seems like barbara would be more likely to run into problems with procrastinating/concentrating.

[a_priori]

Do you think there's a tension between your responses to (2) and (3)? If Barbara is more likely to overcome obstacles, doesn't that make her a safer hire?