What 'tolerance' means to me

[silverwhistle]

I was recently taken to task online for "being intolerant despite having experienced intolerance" myself. To me, "tolerance" is a dishonest thing. It's not honestly engaging with someone and agreeing to differ; it's "shaking hands while holding your nose", pretending to be friendly from a position of superiority. It's not something I like to

Comments

[old_cutter_john]

True for you, but not for me. And I have no problem with your rejection of tolerance. Which inevitably sounds superior and condescending, which in turn helps prove your case. But I'm not going to change: It would degrade my own subjective quality of experience without doing any good at all in the rest of the world. Witness the mood you selected from the drop-down menu.

[silverwhistle]

I chose the mood because I'm frankly pissed off dealing with the people on that board (not on LJ). It claimed to be an escape from a newspaper site that was moderating posts all the time; and yet it has its own unexpressed limitations.

When I've said there are things I simply cannot understand or relate to (because I truly don't understand the mental processes or way of thinking), it's "Oh, you should!". I'm 'out' on that board, but I don't think some of them realise what it means.

[old_cutter_john]

I don't have to understand something in order to tolerate it; but in actual practice I can understand almost any way of thinking, even those that disgust me. It helps that I make understanding a priority, and set my revulsion aside in order that I might understand. The process is simple reverse engineering. I start from the axiom that whatever another person is saying and doing, it makes sense to him. Then I ask myself, What must his mind-set be, in order for those utterances and actions to make sense? There's always at least one answer, and almost never too many answers to be useful. There are other Autistics in this community who do the same thing. I've watched them, and reverse-engineered the process to figure out that that's what they must be doing. Neurotypicals infer the mental state of others automatically but often badly. When we set out to do it consciously, we can get very good at it.

[silverwhistle]

I can do this better with people in books (history, literature) than with face-to-face or even online conversation. These people were saying, "Well, have you never experienced x situation, that makes you want to take y action?" - and no, I hadn't. I couldn't imagine either.

[anais_pf]

I think it is possible that you are sometimes tolerated by other people and you don't even realize it. To me, tolerance means live and let live. I don't look down on everyone or every behavior I tolerate. What about you? If you aren't holding your nose, or looking down it, does that mean you are doing something other than toleration?

[silverwhistle]

Yes. "Toleration" is based in power-relationships, or perceived power-relationships. It's an allowance made by a more powerful party to one that it deems less powerful. It's not acceptance or understanding.

[old_cutter_john]

I hope people read that bit of explanation before more of us respond as if you hadn't offered it. I had no idea that you're using tolerance to mean only that subset of tolerance that excludes acceptance and understanding, and I doubt that anyone else did either. For that matter, I doubt that the person who inspired this post intended your meaning either: it's worth noting that the words acceptance and understanding don't have easy-to use negative forms that correspond to intolerant, so the conventions of good writing forced him to describe you as intolerant rather than using a form of either of the other two words.

[anais_pf]

Ah yes, then you are using the word in a different way than I do. None of the dictionary definitions I consulted (to confirm my understanding of the word) include the negative connotations you discuss. I agree that toleration is not the same as acceptance or understanding, but I don't agree that it can be found only in power relationships, and I don't agree that toleration is a negative thing. Having read all your comments so far on this thread, I kind of understand why you use the word the way you do, but you should be aware that not everyone uses it that way.

[wuvvumsoc]

I think tolerance is adjusting yourself to a situation in a way that helps promote a good atmosphere.

I guess for example I tutor people in writing. There was an instance where I decided to adopt a pro-religious stance (I'm usually not religious) to help someone write their paper since it was grounded in a religious argument. My job was to help give them the tools to make the argument, even if I didn't agree with it.

[wolf_shadow]

Tolerance to me is Wheaton's Law in practice. Often I view being tolerant as not saying something if it could be perceived as nasty or cruel, even if I don't understand WHY that might have that effect. I might not have the instinctive knowledge that some NTs may have, but I can still learn by mistakes. By being tolerant of, say, other sexual orientations or someone's body weight or career choice, that means not criticising someone's choices when it doesn't affect me in the slightest and/or they haven't _explicity_ asked for my input.

All that being said, there is certainly a subset of internet commentators that will try to shut down discussion by reflecting back at people their own experiences. So, A expresses an intolerant view; B says "that's not cool", A accuses B of being intolerant because they won't let them get away with being intolerant themselves. Not saying that this is the case here, but it happens and even though I know it does, I still find it hard to spot when someone does it to me... :/

[silverwhistle]

My experience in the past has been of people I had believed were my friends (for 20 years), and had trusted as if they were family, revealing that they had merely 'tolerated' me - put up with me - and had been using me as a yardstick by which to measure their own self-perceived moral superiority. It was shattering to find they'd been despising me behind my back.

I'm not good at lying, and tend to speak my mind. I expect others to be honest, and not feign friendship when they really despise me. Better an open enemy than a false friend.

[wolf_shadow]

Slightly long answer. I apologise if I'm getting incoherent - I'm writing up at the moment and brain is in 14th Century...

I fail at lying - I either forget or I just can't be bothered to hide. But that is in real life. Online no one can see my facial expressions (my biggest give away). No one can see if I even read something - you only know I saw your response because I am replying, of course :)

Being tolerant is NOT lying, it's just not saying something that you know will cause problems. It's the online equivalent of rolling your eyes and walking out of the room. Being tolerant is also not the same as "tolerating someone" - that is a different kettle of fish entirely.

People are crap, people lie. Finding worthwhile people is hard and sucks. I am cynical so I don't really trust anyone completely, but at the same time, I let everyone show me who they are before I choose to actively distrust them. Would I be devastated if I found that someone I care about only tolerates me? Hell yeah! That's why I don't let them close to start with

[cactus_rs]

Being tolerant is also not the same as "tolerating someone" - that is a different kettle of fish entirely.

Just so. There is a split in the meaning of the word here (in its adjective form and in its verb form) that people don't always make explicit, and therein lies the trap, especially for autistics.

[froganon]

As far as the folks taking you to task online, I say them who matter don't judge and them who judge don't matter.

My own view is one of celebration rather than tolerance. If I cannot celebrate you for exactly who you are, then I will pretty much stay in my corner of the room. I don't want to be tolerated either. I want to be celebrated with no idea that I will change to fit someone else's perceived ideas of "normal" or "average" or "assimilating."

Tolerance may or may not be honest. I really don't know. My sense is simply that tolerance is not enough. Perhaps toleration has a different tone than tolerance.

It is difficult for me to pretend to go along with something or someone if I abhor their outward behavior [for example, a drama queen of either gender who makes everything to be all about themselves].

I do not have to tolerate unacceptable behaviors. I acknowledge that they happen but I certainly don't have to continue standing under a window that an n.t. is throwing dirty water out of.