Comments | deputychairman: This is the sort of thing LJ is better for

deputychairman

This is the sort of thing LJ is better for

Jul 04, 2013 22:46

I've just had a minor lightbulb moment inspired by a Tumblr text post about fanfic, but Tumblr isn't really the place to engage in nuanced discussion. Yes pressure's on I'm expecting nuanced discussing here guys. The text post said:

( The text post said: )

fandom, slash

Comments 16

(The comment has been removed)

Re: (here's a crazy ass long reply! it's what LJ was made for) deputychairman July 5 2013, 07:17:08 UTC

"it's an internalization of the male gaze of the camera, that puts the female viewer into the male perspective when she first interacts with the characters in canon. Her desire for the characters she sees on TV is already filtered through the male perspective" (I can't do italics in comments dammit, please imagine that was italicised) YES I'm super interested in your male gaze angle, as you've no doubt noticed - as well as the other stuff, it rings very true for me. The camera is male, so we identify with male characters, they have feelings and an internal world, whereas female characters are often just objects and there's nothing for a woman viewer to identify with. I had a Tumblr conversation with someone else about this, whether the absence of credible female characters partly explains slash; she went more down the internalised misogyny route and I don't say she's wrong but happily I don't recognise that so much in myself, I just know I spent my teens inventing female equivalents of the characters I loved in Star Trek and Lord of ( ... )

doodlesinsand July 4 2013, 23:07:02 UTC

(Sorry, I don't think this is going to be nuanced at all, just rambling. Oops ( ... )

deputychairman July 5 2013, 07:33:53 UTC

Yeah my "too close! too close!" alarm is going off too! I chose to express that by making a joke of it so that all of Tumblr knows I am turned on by Fraser in handcuffs, like, talking about it so openly means I am actually SUPER LIBERATED AND NOT AT ALL TROUBLED BY HOW I REACT TO THIS. YES I AM LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU ( ... )

(The comment has been removed)

deputychairman July 5 2013, 08:27:39 UTC

"we have some weird hard-wired instinct to have strong feelings toward helpless things (like babies and puppies and arctic seals), so maybe that has something to do with it?" I'd never thought of it that way, but given how my hormones go ping at babies at the moment, that could be another factor, yes.

Can I just say, an extended conversation about why Paul Gross in handcuffs is so compelling is pretty much my idea of heaven? I really, really love everybody in this bar.

tl;dr (that's a a bit passive-aggressive isn't it? DONT'T READ BUT DO BECAUSE I POSTED the COMMENT) hiswasburgundy July 5 2013, 03:26:55 UTC

I'll be honest, I never liked Fraser/Thatcher, and I'm not sure exactly why. I do know that if he was her superior, I would probably like it even less. I can see why people think they have chemistry though, but I think he might bring her down if they were in a long-term relationship. I'm not sure that makes sense, but there you are then.

I've never really analyzed why I seem to prefer slash couples over het ones, but now that you mention it, them being dudes and equal in society makes sense. I have one IRL friend that I can talk to about slash, and I remember she explained that she liked it saying something about how she wasn't interested in reading about a woman in relationship because she was one...or something like that. That makes her sound like she hates women but I think the point was that she wanted to read about something she didn't experience in real life.

I've also freaked myself out over-analysing Fraser in handcuffs - am I identifying with him because of his submissive/female traits? And then projecting this thing that ( ... )

Re: tl;dr (that's a a bit passive-aggressive isn't it? DONT'T READ BUT DO BECAUSE I POSTED the COMME deputychairman July 5 2013, 07:48:04 UTC

I worry I read slash for the "wrong" reasons too. But at the same time, I find it this liberated female space where women write porn with feelings for other women, and talk openly about what they like, and no one is objectified or exploited because they're fictional and even if they're real ppl it's just words on a screen, and that's pretty amazing. I think it was Fuckyeahpaulgross made a point defending Fraser/Thatcher, saying how it was shameful that female characters were erased from fic so they didn't read any. I can see why a person would say that, but I didn't reply to their post because I disagree totally. I don't think it's shameful AT ALL for other women to choose who they write and develop; if they don't find anything interesting in one-dimensional female characters, well, I don't see a problem with that. I know there are fandoms which bash female characters to death - I've never experienced that but I'm sure internalised misogyny comes into play there ( ... )

Re: tl;dr (that's a a bit passive-aggressive isn't it? DONT'T READ BUT DO BECAUSE I POSTED the COMME hiswasburgundy July 5 2013, 08:03:43 UTC

But at the same time, I find it this liberated female space where women write porn with feelings for other women, and talk openly about what they like, and no one is objectified or exploited because they're fictional and even if they're real ppl it's just words on a screen, and that's pretty amazing.

It really is. And it's weird because you don't hear anything about slash or fanfiction outside of the internet, unless you have friends that are openly into that (which I actually have one of). The other day my sister asked what I was doing and I told her I was beta-ing a fanfic and she had no idea what that was. But anyway, yeah it's great that people can bounce ideas off each other and have a place where they're not the only ones who would rather read well written sexytimes fanfiction than 50 Shades of My Inner Goddess Likes Kinky Sex But I'm Also An Innocent Flower.

if they don't find anything interesting in one-dimensional female characters, well, I don't see a problem with that.Yesssss. I think I struggle with people saying things ( ... )

(The comment has been removed)

deputychairman July 5 2013, 07:53:18 UTC

There's def a "plausible deniability" thing there for me, yes!

And as you say, it's more about the feelings. The bits don't matter. If I'm reading the POV of a male character during sex, I can't know what that feels like physically but I can identify with desire and wanting and pining and possessiveness and the amazingness of a first time with someone you've fallen in love with and knowing you're about to come, etc. If it's just thrusting genitalia like filmed porn seems to be, I'm not that interested. I want to know what they're feeling emotionally as much as physically.

(The comment has been removed)

deputychairman July 5 2013, 08:23:11 UTC

Ugh my stupid internet went down just when I tried to post a reply to this - is the government spying on my TMI or something?

I think I said I LOVE the idea of a TMI chart, and to reciprocate the TMI, although I def like D/S in fic, it's not a place I've ever gone in RL. I wonder if it's because I'm with someone who embodies quite a few "dominant male" traits whereas I've learned a the "submissive female" ones (passive aggressive arguing, hello) and especially now I earn less I feel I have to work at it to assert my equality in the partnership. So I don't want any power dynamics in the bedroom because sex otherwise is very equalising experience between us. (That is about the least sexy way I have ever looked at my sex life. Gosh. I wouldn't want to sleep with me.)