SAME MAN, DIFFERENT TIME: META ON GODHOOD AND POWERS IN THE TEN AND ELEVEN ERAS.
topaz_eyes and I were having a v. interesting conversation on solitary_summer’s LJ, but when she posted the following comment I realised I needed to make a post, because even just thinking about the answer I knew it’d fill up about 4 comment boxes. (It ended up around 8000 words, in the end. Approximately.) Plus it was wildly off topic for the post it was in
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Comments 82
I agree with almost all of this <3
>>This is another point where I get all baffled, so first of all I’m going to talk about how often the Doctor is wrong in S5, because IMHO that season is in many ways a catalogue of Eleven stumbling, and needing others in order to save the say. And (mostly) his wrongness is not just in the details, but in fundamentally misunderstanding the situations
100% exactly. This is part of why I love him so much. He just kind of stumbles into trouble and then runs around trying to fix the increasing amount of mistakes he's making, and blatantly admits he has no idea what's happening or what he's going to do. No wonder he needs River to save his silly butt sometimes. Something which I have a feeling is going to become more significant in series 6.
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You! <3
I agree with almost all of this <3
*grins* I thought you might...
100% exactly. This is part of why I love him so much. He just kind of stumbles into trouble and then runs around trying to fix the increasing amount of mistakes he's making, and blatantly admits he has no idea what's happening or what he's going to do.
Indeed:
AMY: OK. so we've basically run up the inside of a chimney, yeah? So what if the gravity fails?
DOCTOR: I've thought about that.
AMY: And?
DOCTOR: And we'll all plunge to our deaths. See. I've thought about it.
RIVER: There's a plan?
DOCTOR: I don't know yet, I haven’t finished talking.
*loves it all too much for words*
No wonder he needs River to save his silly butt sometimes. Something which I have a feeling is going to become more significant in series 6.
Indeed. He is brilliant when he's got the right idea, but if he's got the wrong end of the stick, his solution will be wrong too...
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Those were the exact scenes I was thinking of! Also "Lux can deal without me - but YOU can't! (BOOSH!)" which is not an Eleventy episode, but still Moff's take on the Doctor.
He's also so scatterbrained he doesn't know that he knows things, like when he figures out the ship has no engine with the water-glasses in The Beast Below but then jumps to another topic and doesn't get back to it until later.
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Also "Lux can deal without me - but YOU can't! (BOOSH!)" which is not an Eleventy episode, but still Moff's take on the Doctor.
She knows him so well...
He's also so scatterbrained he doesn't know that he knows things, like when he figures out the ship has no engine with the water-glasses in The Beast Below but then jumps to another topic and doesn't get back to it until later.
*nods a lot* And this bit here beautifully illustrates the way he thinks, all kinds of different thoughts jumbled together:
DOCTOR: Cracks in time, time running out... No, couldn't be. How is a duck pond a duck pond if there aren't any ducks? And she didn't recognise the Daleks! OK, time can shift. Time can change. Time can be rewritten. Ah! Oh!
(What I love about Eleven specifically is that you can almost see the wheels turning.)
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Looking forward, if you get round to it. :)
I will say, that I've had bits of a meta essay in my head for a while about the Doctor as Trickster for um, years now.
This does not surprise me AT ALL! And I would love for you to write it, it's such a perfect fit.
Unfortunately, Western storytellers have had an tendency to equate trickster characters with the Devil. I have theories as to why that is, but they aren't exactly flattering to mainstream Christian theology, in my mind. (Sorry.)
No apologies needed - Christianity unfortunately has a tendency to be difficult and prejudiced in things like this.
This is also why I think trying to put monotheistic imagery in Doctor Who, or analyzing it on that basis, doesn't really *work*.
This is a good point, and probably why so much of 'the Doctor as God' stuff is such an awkward fit. Interesting, but awkward.
Jesus's parables in the Gospels and his behavior in the Temple, otoh, fit the Trickster archetype well. But then, he ( ... )
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(Yes, they do!)
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Seems like I'm telling you that every other week.
But, you only have yourself to blame. See above for proof.
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Well it's ENTIRELY mutual! ♥
And hey, lovefests are always a good thing, IMHO. Plus, remember that about half of this is Promethia's... :)
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"Plus, remember that about half of this is Promethia's... :)" Ooh, yes, of course! Another person who I consistently just ADORE.
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And I don't know where I'd be without Promethia... My essays would be half the length!
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Sometimes the Doctor strikes me as a combination of Gandalf and Tom Bombadil (who has some of the attributes of a Trickster figure, even though that's not how Tolkien meant him) *g*.
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Sometimes the Doctor strikes me as a combination of Gandalf and Tom Bombadil (who has some of the attributes of a Trickster figure, even though that's not how Tolkien meant him) *g*.
Yes, that works very well! Gandalf on his own might be a little too severe. (This stuff's fun!)
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Ten: "I. AM. AMAZING!" *Does something amazing, poses proudly*
Rose: *licks teeth*
Martha: *gazes longingly*
Donna: "Harrumph."
Whereas...
"Eleven: Just watch this, c'mon, you'll see, I am ama--" *falls on his arse*
Amy: *facepalm*Never really considered the Doctor's character as a partial-Trickster role, but it really does fit him, and makes sense. He was never supposed to be the conventional protagonist or hero, and the Doctor certainly has those Trickster attributes. And you described perfectly how he fits as a mentor-like figure, which I think is closely connected to his portrayal as a wizard- like Gandalf, or Yoda, and also Dumbledore (from Harry Potter). Like all these figures, the Doctor is old (so very old), and wise (but certainly not infallible) and definitely eccentric ( ... )
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*beams* That's exactly what I was aiming for. I love them both, but they are SO different... One thing I found v. interesting was how half the time I was talking about how Ten and Eleven were completely different characters, and the other half I was drawing comparisons. (Also hence the length.)
and this was hilarious (and so true)
I have cherished it ever since I first came across it! :D
Never really considered the Doctor's character as a partial-Trickster role, but it really does fit him, and makes sense. He was never supposed to be the conventional protagonist or hero, and the Doctor certainly has those Trickster attributes.
He really does - suddenly *so* many things fell into place!
And you described perfectly how he fits as a mentor-like figure, which I think is closely connected to his portrayal as a wizard- like Gandalf, or Yoda, and also Dumbledore (from Harry Potter). Like all these figures, ( ... )
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Oh I know the feeling... But it's worth it.
River really does intrigue me- I find her the most mysterious figure in the Whoniverse, and I love fic that explores her character.
Um - anything by promethia_tenk or cinderbella333. I've written a few bits as well - I can get back to you later with more specific recs if you're interested?
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