Meh. I don't put my hand on my heart for the national anthem and I'm not big on the pledge of allegiance, but I don't think that makes me any less of a person. I don't really think it's a big thing.
You do have a point. I do recognize that. It's just that I was trying to point out a paradox when the man claims to be so very, very patriotic, but yet all I've seen in his campaign is . . . well, the opposite.
I know that's not going to be a very popular statement or opinion, but it's really how I feel and think when it comes to this.
To me, being patriotic is about how you feel in your heart. It doesn't matter if you've been through a harrowing experience as a war vet or if you do or don't perform certain symbolic gestures. These things don't make you a patriot - only how you feel about your country with your heart and soul.
And how can we really know? Sure, outward gestures give us clues. However, I'm sure there are just as many people who just go through the motions without really feeling these things in their hearts.
As I stated in a reply below this, those symbols can be important. However, you're right that they are just gestures and do not reflect what goes on in the heart or mind of the person who chooses to gesture or not.
You have a very great, excellent point and I thank you for making it. I think this is the best comment so far in this segment of replies. Thank you, anricat
Even if he doesn't put his hand over his heart when the Pledge is said, the Pledge is stupid, anyway. If you take an oath, which the Pledge is, you only need to do it once. As Doug Stanhope says, good things don't have to tell you they're good, you'll figure it out on your own. You don't need to chant and march.
There are so many other actual important issues with this election, I am so fucking tired of these bullshit distractions like flag pins, who put their heart over their heart or not, and crap like Jeremiah Wright.
Thanks for the correction. I didn't know that I'd gotten that wrong.
However, on the subject of the Pledge of Allegiance, it's a respect thing toward the country we live in and the people who have sacrificed their lives and their freedoms, at points, to ensure that we have the right to live the way we do . . . which includes having debates like this, flame wars on the Internet, and other stupid things that people do. We have the freedom to fuck up or to not fuck up. We have choice, to some significant degree, still. Okay, so I still think that it's high time for a revolution, as Thomas Jefferson said - and I'm paraphrasing and I may have the person who said it wrong (I'm running on little sleep, so my brain's a bit sluggish) - but a revolution every now and then is good for a country.
Patriotism is love of country, not flags, or anthems, or pledges. Hell, the pledge was a cynical political device invented during the Red Scare, as a tool meant to weed out communists. Obama is definitely a patriot by my standard, as evidenced by the fact that he's the first major party candidate to actually inspire me to give a shit about elections in a long time, I've gone third party as protest votes in the last ones. I went to the caucuses and voted for him, as well as the primary, and I actually ended up being a delegate to the district convention because of it. John McCain and Hillary Clinton, to my perception, represent the same old cynical political maneuvering endemic to politics in America, catering to monied special interests instead of the needs of the people. Obama goes against that trend to a much greater degree, in that he actually seems to love the country and the people in it, and wants to help them out, and make the country better. He represents a growing grassroots movement of people getting together and
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Cool. That's your opinion and I can see valid points to it. However, I don't necessarily agree with you. He may represent a certain segment of the population, but that doesn't mean much, really
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Oh my, you and I disagree politically. But I don't even know you except through your journal. So I hope you don't get too mad or offended or hate me for this reply. If you do, you may delete this response and I won't complain or bring it up again. And, whether you delete this post or not, feel free to disagree with me when I make political posts in my journal
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Yes, and while she's preaching, would you care to share your thoughts and opinions on the matter? If that came off sarcastically, I didn't mean it. I seriously want to know what you think about the whole matter. This is seriously about open discussion and getting people to dialog with each other and think about these things.
Well, for one, there are numerous reasons one might not say the pledge or salute the flag. I'd rather someone, even someone who wants to lead this country, follow his conscience or beliefs on that than just blindly do any sort of behaviour or token gesture. I have read where he stands on issues, I've seen the grace and poise he shows when under pressure and confrontation, and I feel that gestures like wearing a flag emblem or posturing in front of a flag are just beside and beyond the point, and the sort of straw-grasping nitpicking someone who feels threatened by or dislikes him and can't put forth any stronger argument would point out (and I'm not meaning to target you there, that's much more directed at how his competition's been acting).
I don't put my hand on my heart for the anthem either, nor have I said the pledge of allegiance since 4th grade, when I first comprehended that freedom of speech meant *exactly* that they couldn't force me to say it. OTOH, I play "The Stars & Stripes Forever" as loudly as anyone!
Other people have already directed you to the debunking of the whole Obama-not-saying-pledge thing. I just add the caution: don't believe everything in articles that people forward to you by email.
I'm not going for another years of Clinton/Bush... McCain represents another Bush, in many respects. He *wants* this 'war' (which has not been declared by Congress) to continue... he's fine with another 100 years (I can get quote, if you want). He's fine with keeping control of our nation w/ pretty much the same corporations/lobbyists that have been drawing our finances down to our knees (re: he makes a LOT of money from his wife's business'... and scored several *exclusive* contracts for firms (KBH/Halliburton)... so yeah, if I wanted to see our great country continue to run down the drain, and appear, I would vote McCain...
Also, wasn't he waterboarded back in Vietnam? Tortured, even? Of course its not torture... its called 'Enhanced Interrogation Techniques'. I guess the Japanese guy who was sentenced to life imprisonment for waterboarding Americans gets to go scottfree, with this new wording? But, I'd rather not. Hillary... ugh... Obama? Maybe. Ron Paul? Go back to reddit.
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I know that's not going to be a very popular statement or opinion, but it's really how I feel and think when it comes to this.
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And how can we really know? Sure, outward gestures give us clues. However, I'm sure there are just as many people who just go through the motions without really feeling these things in their hearts.
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You have a very great, excellent point and I thank you for making it. I think this is the best comment so far in this segment of replies. Thank you, anricat
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Even if he doesn't put his hand over his heart when the Pledge is said, the Pledge is stupid, anyway. If you take an oath, which the Pledge is, you only need to do it once. As Doug Stanhope says, good things don't have to tell you they're good, you'll figure it out on your own. You don't need to chant and march.
There are so many other actual important issues with this election, I am so fucking tired of these bullshit distractions like flag pins, who put their heart over their heart or not, and crap like Jeremiah Wright.
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However, on the subject of the Pledge of Allegiance, it's a respect thing toward the country we live in and the people who have sacrificed their lives and their freedoms, at points, to ensure that we have the right to live the way we do . . . which includes having debates like this, flame wars on the Internet, and other stupid things that people do. We have the freedom to fuck up or to not fuck up. We have choice, to some significant degree, still. Okay, so I still think that it's high time for a revolution, as Thomas Jefferson said - and I'm paraphrasing and I may have the person who said it wrong (I'm running on little sleep, so my brain's a bit sluggish) - but a revolution every now and then is good for a country.
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Other people have already directed you to the debunking of the whole Obama-not-saying-pledge thing. I just add the caution: don't believe everything in articles that people forward to you by email.
My advice: worth every penny you paid for it :D
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I'm glad that I got the truth pointed out to me, too. That makes me feel a bit different about the whole thing.
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Also, wasn't he waterboarded back in Vietnam? Tortured, even? Of course its not torture... its called 'Enhanced Interrogation Techniques'. I guess the Japanese guy who was sentenced to life imprisonment for waterboarding Americans gets to go scottfree, with this new wording?
But, I'd rather not. Hillary... ugh... Obama? Maybe. Ron Paul? Go back to reddit.
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