Meta: Jack/Ianto and Lurve, that old chestnut.

[fide_et_spe]

Notes: There may be bits of this that aren't 100% serious, I hope they are obvious. As to canon, I am counting all the television episodes, and the radio plays, not the books and other media. (I think the books get a little confusing and I know some people don't count them, so I won't) I also am well aware that the plays were written after CoE, but

Comments

[phaetonschariot]

Yeah I loved the TTLM conversation, I thought it was done really well. Season two was really good for Jack/Ianto. I'd have loved to see more of it like how Gwen/Rhys got a lot of screen time, but after watching them develop in season two what we got in CoE was incredibly frustrating.

[fide_et_spe]

Yay first comment. Yes exactly, there was all this very nice build up, then Euros Lynne really promised something that was just not delivered. Which would almost be OK if you knew there were more chances for it in the future.

[phaetonschariot]

It's like the season two character development NEVER HAPPENED. I hated the Dead Line speech as well because, uh, I tend to think that Ianto is not so much of a weepy emo that he has paranoid delusions that Jack smiles in his sleep because he's dreaming about leaving Ianto.

[fide_et_spe]

Oh I think that speech is a beautifully written monologue. I think it's also lovely exposition, and so wonderfully delivered, it's like a masterclass in putting emotion into your voice. I agree though, I don't especially like that bit, I think the insecurity about Jack being immortal, and needing to leave, well those things make sense, but it does go a bit too far down the emo rats in the stomach road. Still it is ever so sweet.

[lefaym]

Well fine, but one thing that strikes me about GDL, he isn't disingenuous, he gives thoughtful answers and this is how he interpreted his work. Good for him. Also I think there is a lot of support for this from the pre CoE interviews. Whether we think the writing and direction showed it or not, clearly someone thought this was a love story. Euros Lynne said this, and as the director, this is the vision that would be worked on with the actors.The thing that gets me is that they did have a good team of writers and an extremely good director. So I can't just buy that they fucked up unintentionally here. I think if they'd wanted to write a love story, then that's what they would have done -- and the fact that it didn't come across in the writing and direction indicates to me that they didn't want it there, in spite of what they said in interviews

[fide_et_spe]

Oh I'm not that cynical about him. He is pretty straight talking and says what he thinks. I think it is the way he has interpreted it. I also think there is good supporting stuff to indicate this is the party line to an extent. I just genuinely believe they think it's there. I'm not convinced as to the talent of the writers, it seems to me that when RTD wasn't writing it there was a lot more fu n to be had.

Also whilst I have a different view on the relationship, I agree with Tencrush when she says that you have to understand, this is how RTD views love. It's a pattern all his characters follow.

[lefaym]

Yeah, RTD does have some fucked up views about love, and about someone always being the "needy" partner, but I still don't think that explains it. I mean, the obvious point of comparison is the Doctor and Rose, and with them, I really never doubted for a second that the Doctor loved Rose, in spite of the fact that he was clearly afraid of getting close to her. I never doubted that he cared for her happiness. So we know that RTD is capable of writing that sort of love story effectivly, movingly, even if his views on love itself are screwed up.

it seems to me that when RTD wasn't writing it there was a lot more fun to be had.

Well, I think that Everything Changes was a great script, but the problem is that RTD didn't write for Torchwood again until TSE/JE, and even that wasn't much. And unlike the scripts for Doctor Who, he didn't carefully edit everything to ensure that it was all in line with his vision for the characters. My feeling is that RTD simply had his own idea about where the characters were going, and this didn't

[fide_et_spe]

Well as I said, I really never liked Everything Changes, it was only the Ianto/Jack minute literally that kept me watching.

I don't doubt that Jack loves Ianto though, but I do think RTD wants to play out that Doctor /Rose thing over and over. Its pretty fucked when you think about it.

[madder_rose]

Without going back to CoE again (I watched it twice...) I think they were both beginning to realize just how much they cared for each other. Not in the "Oh I love you so much" way but rather the "You know, I could see myself spending a lifetime with you". Maybe that's what held them back and maybe that's what made Ianto nervous about telling his sister. Not that he was just shagging a man but that he was willing to spend the rest of his life with that man as well

[caledonius72]

I think that we saw in Cyberwoman, that when Ianto loves you, he loves you completely, without fear or favour.

I have read, in one of the novels or in a fic, that there's nothing casual about Ianto. I think that's very much the case, no half measures - all or nothing. And not showing off, just being who he is, as hard as he can.

[madder_rose]

^I agree. I think both of them do things all or nothing, but while Jack's focused on saving the world Ianto is focused on Jack - while also saving the world. I think Ianto might also be the sort of person to always need something definitive to devote himself to.

[caledonius72]

I'm a Buddhist, and there's a term we use "honzon" - an object worthy of devotion.

I think that Jack is Ianto's honzon. He needs to have something or someone to commit to totally - that's just the way he is. I don't think he over-analyses his motivations. "I am Ianto Jones, and this is how I roll."

[caledonius72]

"Jack was realising that he was in love with Ianto, and not coping well, trying to resist it."

trufax - Jack is a bit of a cock sometimes.

[fide_et_spe]

I was interested that GDL said this, as it certainly can be seen this way. It also makes sense of Ianto pushing him.

Anyhow Ianto did ask Jack for a pony, just before he died, we just couldn't hear it, that's all.

[caledonius72]

It's been said so many times before, but Jack's lost too many of those he loves to death, you can see why he would be reluctant.

You know, i heard that too, it's was like it was subvocal almost.

[fide_et_spe]

Yes he really did say it. Derren Brown told me so.

[jedirita]

I just don't get how people didn't feel the love in CoE. I thought it was infinitely better without mushy declarations, and if anything, I could have done without Ianto saying, "I love you," because, well, duh.

These are NOT talk-about-feelings guys. They show it through their actions. Jack did open up to Ianto, in his armor-plated, never-tell-my-secrets kind of way when he turned back and told Ianto about Alice and Stephen. As for Ianto, after they have their spat, as soon as Jack is going to storm Thames House, there is not even the slightest hesitation that Ianto will go with him.

As for the couple conversation - how do people miss the fact that when Ianto says, "He was acting like we're a couple," Jack says, "Well, we are. Is that a problem?" So to me, I interepret that whole thing not as Jack having a problem with being in a couple, but rather with the word. That is, in fact, literally what he says, "I hate that word, 'couple

[fide_et_spe]

Yes you see, this is what I meant above in my reply to Lefaym, when I said that I genuinely think that the writers and actors think the love story is there. I do think it's fine to say the three words if you are about to kick the bucket. The reason I changed it is because I think it could be done in a way that is slightly less cliched. Of course declarations of love always end up with some cliche there.

I absolutely agree that Jack's actions spoke of love. I do think the dialogue between them all through is a bit off, and a bit AU. I like that Jack says, yes they are a couple, but I find Ianto going on about it just strange and out of character.

Oh and I don't think Jack saying he hates the word means for a minute that he doesn't think they are, but it's a strange little piece of dialogue.

[lefaym]

I just don't get how people didn't feel the love in CoE. I thought it was infinitely better without mushy declarations, and if anything, I could have done without Ianto saying, "I love you," because, well, duh.

Speaking as someone who doesn't feel the love in CoE, I nonetheless absolutely agree with this -- I was never invested in the idea that Jack and Ianto would declare their love for each other like that, and I never really felt that either of them saying it out loud changed the game that much.

[animalboything]

Agreeing a lot with this comment but I'll go so far as to add my two-cents of Ianto being the first to mention the 'was acting like we're a couple' and then again the reiteration on that with Jack's response. I was under the impression that Jack was pissy about it because he didn't like Ianto being wishywashy and got a bit indignant about it and well, held a mini-grudge. At least that's the way one of my ex-partners was when I was doing the whole, "They called us this" thing in my life, hence the small comparison. I saw that a touch more than Jack not wanting to admit just how much he fell for Ianto, although obviously it's there unconditionally.