Meta: Jack/Ianto and Lurve, that old chestnut.

[fide_et_spe]

Notes: There may be bits of this that aren't 100% serious, I hope they are obvious. As to canon, I am counting all the television episodes, and the radio plays, not the books and other media. (I think the books get a little confusing and I know some people don't count them, so I won't) I also am well aware that the plays were written after CoE, but

Comments

[51stcenturyfox]

I didn't like the, "Ianto taught Jack about love" line either -- Jack has certainly been in long-term relationships and was a parent and grandparent, so he knows about love, for pete's sake -- though it's true that at least in some cases, partners/family had trouble dealing with his immortality. But I can see the point madder_rose makes, as well.

I don't like overly smushy dialogue. Declarations of love are of course the death of a relationship, or a character. I prefer them not to happen. If they need to though, I do think it can work in this "show not tell" way. Where the words are just there as part of a conversation.

I totally agree. I'm the same way. Words are just words anyway, if you're not willing to back them up with actions.

I'm also really fond of the Ianto and Gwen friendship moments. :)

[madder_rose]

I liked that Jack didn't say I love you to Ianto. It would have broken the whole scene and sent it off into weepy-teenage angst "o la my boyfriend's gone" kind of crap. Jack reacted perfectly saying "No, not him, anyone but him" and throwing himself at the aliens even before he threw himself at Ianto.

[51stcenturyfox]

I'm in agreement. I'm not sure why some viewers wanted the mutual declaration thing. I think it would have been sort of cliched and was more effective the way it was written.

[phaetonschariot]

Besides which I think it's more important to Ianto to be told he'll be remembered than to be told he's loved.

[teaboyfan]

If anyone doubts GDL's brilliance as an actor, just look at all of us, almost three months after Ianto's death, still finding nuances and interested in discussing them. He took what was essentially a throw-away role and fleshed it out into one of the most complex and lovable fictional characters I've ever known

[fide_et_spe]

Yes indeed! I agree with everything you say. I also think RTD and JG gave piss poor reasons for Ianto's death. It was just lazy old fridging.

[hanuueshe]

That scene in TTLM was the best awkward, talking around our feelings conversation I've ever seen. Ever. Jack/Ianto was really a lot more show than tell, and the big problem I had with CoE is that they didn't show and all they'd tell is the awkwardness.

I think RTD&Co's vision of love is something there is no choice about, where it will always end in tears and only the young/naive/unreasonable choose to persue it without trying to hold back. Whereas most of the rest of us sort of hope for things like affection and respect and perhaps a little bit of light in a world that's a pretty dark, fucked-up place.

...which kind of makes me want to write fic where Jack and Susan Ivanova get absolutely drunk and commiserate. And scare the shit out of her crew in the process.

[fide_et_spe]

Sorry for being thick, but who is Susan Ivanova? I would have some trouble with your fic i think. I agree with you. I think they have always been show not tell, and CoE seemed all over the place with this rule.

[hanuueshe]

Susan Ivanova is a character from Babylon 5 who, to put it lightly, has some similar issues to Jack when it comes to her relationships. (ie: everyone she loves dies. No, seriously. She's isn't immortal, everyone just dies.) They've also got the same coping mechanism of running away into parts unknown when it gets to be too much

[remuslives23]

Jack has had relationships including long-term ones. However, as he spent over a century waiting for The Doctor it is quite possible that he held a part of himself back considering his stay on earth- and thus any relationship he was in- temporary. This may well have made him particularly avoid a relationship with anyone who loved him unconditionally- as the deeper the emotions run the painful it is at the end and the more Jack would probably hurt them- and, thus, you can argue that Ianto was the first to love him unconditionally.

This. Is. Perfect. :)

[fide_et_spe]

Thanks for this comment. It feels exactly right to me. When I see RTD interviewed or on those behind the scenes shows, he just seems really pompous with his point of view. I get that you need some confidence, and I have made this point before, in my CoE meta, I talked about Woody Allen, but there are lots of examples, of great artists who are humble about their work, and can be self critical, would never put down those who challenge them. With RTD honestly, it's like he thinks he is Shakespeare and Bergman, and Brecht. And really, he's not.

[stuffphile]

You've hit the nail on the head, about the facebook status. That's totally why!

I don't like ILUs in this type of story. My preference with J/I is a lot like in the meta someone did about Jack and Ianto being soldiers. The best moment that showed us the feelings between them was when Ianto held Jack as he revived after being shot.

Apart from that, well, Ianto looks rather pathetic, sadly. His love and concern are obvious, but Jack hardly seems to regard him as more than an annoyance. Except when it's too late, of course. This could have been avoided if they thought to have Jack to say to Ianto, "thank you," even one, solitary time. (For preference, during the death scene!)

[fide_et_spe]

Yes it is, it's Facebook I tell you. That's why I put the thank you in my little rewrite! He does that much more in S2 and in the radio plays. I think the CoE writers are a bit screwed up about what treating people well is all about.