unlocked, to promote discussion

[glockgal]

BINDI?
DISCLAIMER: I'm using 'Wolverine and the X-Men' as an example. I'm not offended by the cartoon, I just laugh at the story/characterization of the X-Men. My personal opinion, which doesn't affect this discussion and doesn't judge your enjoyment of the cartoon. (in short: I like tons of stuff others laugh at; but I know you don't judge me for

Comments

[zephre]

I'm sure that with the right school and faculty adviser, you could probably get a PhD in race and racial shortcuts in cartoons. I'd read that dissertation.

LOL about the German visual tags - I can't believe I never noticed things like that before. I feel like I have failed at visual communications comprehension now.

(also, yay for the edit button on comments because my tiny HP mini keyboard has borked my typing today. whee.)

[glockgal]

Dude, just as an aside - I cannot WAIT to meet you in real life at Azkatraz. You constantly prove yourself to be a fascinating person in so many ways!!

I feel like I have failed at visual communications comprehension now.
I'm only now starting to pick up on it, myself. And, consequently, having to internally justify my comprehension, because I can usually hear people in my head saying "Oh, you're just being over-sensitive" when I notice visual disparities. Heh.

[zephre]

*blush* hey, thanks! I can't wait to have some conversation in person, too!

I have to say that in the last three months it's like somebody shook me awake from a weird dream - a lot of those cultural cues or habits, including the visual whitewashing and stereotyping - are on my radar more often than they are under it.
It's messing with my head, but in a very good, if uncomfortable way.

I'm not sure it's possible to be over-sensitive about stuff like this - if it hurts, it hurts. If you notice, you notice. The degree of reaction may vary depending on the situation, but the 'just being over-sensitive' moment - I don't know. I really don't think anybody gets to tell folks how they are allowed to engage with any media, any more than dictate that they like or dislike it in general. If that makes sense?

[zephre]

ok, I have thunk some thoughts, especially after my Tarot Meetup last night (long story, but it was food for thought on the cultural misappropriation front) so I'm just going to add it in here, since I've got this thread going.

Is it necessary? Can we have a speaking!brown character without providing cultural indicators? What I mean is:

* can a child watching the cartoon comprehend that the character is a certain race without the cultural indicator?
* for a child, can it be a subtle, subconscious form of Othering?
* and, is it really necessary for the child to comprehend the culture of the character if it's not particularly necessary to the story? My experience is that of a white American, and in two different regions of America - I grew up in Houston, a cosmopolitan, international city as cities go, but it is in Texas; and lived for a decade as an adult in or near New York City. Just so my biases are out there clearly

[chrismm]

1. I think, totally aside from race issues, that adults, particularly business!adults who are (stereotyping ahoy!) workaholics who rarely spend time with any children in their lives... Wait where was I going? Oh, yes. I think a lot of adults think children are stupid. They are wildly mistaken. So yes, I think kids understand way more than adults give them credit for, and it is not necessary to spoon feed them pre-digested crap. Especially fucked-up, wrong-headed, non-nutritious, pre-digested crap.

Not that I have an opinion on this. :D

2. Absolutely. Possibly not even that subtle. Possibly not even subtle at all.
3. I don't know--necessary? Probably not. If they were getting a more honest sense of the various cultures, with a less othering-message? It would be cool. But since that's not how it's being done, no, it's not necessary.

Bonus question: Oh, hell yes. In fact, I would give YOU $5 to do it. :DDDDD

[glockgal]

HEEE YOUR RANT IS AWESOME. But yes, I also agree with it. Kids are smarter than we give them credit for but also marketing tends to be so subversive, that they ingrain beliefs that end up revealing themselves in ugly ways when the kids get older. Man, the amount of stuff I have trace back to my own childhood in terms of subversive messaging! Or, maybe I was just a stupid kid. ;D

If they were getting a more honest sense of the various cultures, with a less othering-message? It would be cool.

YES YES YES TO THIS. My goodness. I hate to say it, but I think Captain Planet, despite it's amazing failitude, was actually on the right track. Sadly, it got mired in being fail, ahahahah.

[hex_16]

Hell, Captain Planet even "othered" Americans by portraying the American kid as the obnoxious, environmentally-clueless one. No, that's not a stereotype. :P (Never mind that the whole cartoon was heavy-handed environmentalist propaganda.) :)

[pandoras_closet]

Not stupid.

They don't have the skills/life experience to tell the difference.

That kids can and do have that is something that a lot of execs haven't caught on to yet, and so they frequently dumb down cartoons out of fear that kids won't watch and therefore won't pester parents to buy crappy merchandise.

That shows like like the DCAU series or Avatar made it through realativly unscathed is nothing short of amazing.

[ashkitty]

Oh, I think it happens to white people inside America, too, generally if the people are Southerners or Irish. (Though every time I get into this discussion at all, I end up trying to work out whether the Irish should be considered PoC or not, especially if the conversation is expanded to more than just American or North American media. If we're including everywhere, then the Koreans get it in Japan, the Irish and Welsh get it in Britain along with the Pakistanis and Indians, the Turks get it in Germany, and so on forever and ever amen.)

[bossymarmalade]

I end up trying to work out whether the Irish should be considered PoC or not

No, since they're not People of Colour, inside *or* outside of North America.

[ashkitty]

Not in the sense that they have brown skin, no. But there are several centuries of institutionalised, indoctrinated racism against them that is still alive and well.

[bossymarmalade]

The term refers to people who are visually marked as People of COLOUR, therefore, it does not refer to white people no matter how marginalized the group they belong to. The oppressions there are not lateral.

Also, inasmuch as Lori is talking about representation in cartoons, the examples of Britain and Germany aren't hugely relevant because they don't have a big, worldwide-media cartoon industry! Anime is a whole 'nother animal.

[aybara_max]

Apparently this girl is Ms. CrazyCulturalAppropriation:

OH MY GAWD!!!

::twitch::

[bossymarmalade]

U R SO MEEN SHE OBVIOUSLY LOVES OTHER CULTURES ENOUGH TO TRY THEM ON AND CAMWHORE IN THEM

[aybara_max]

INORITE?!

I <3 your icon ^_^

[bossymarmalade]

I ♥ yours too! There is never a bad time for Salma.

[cathybites]

well, the only way I knew you were of Indian descent was because of your bindi and accent...oh, wait.

and, yeah, cartoons are this weird kind of otherworld when it comes to things like this. On the one hand, the nature of the media lends itself to simplification of everything. On the other, do they need to do it *so* much? hmmph.

anyways, the real purpose of this comment is to say YOU KNOW WHAT YOU'RE SPENDING YOUR LOTTERY EARNINGS ON.

[glockgal]

It was easy for you too, man. I saw you and KNEW from all that submissive giggling and kimchi-eating that you were Korean!

I know, right? I understand the need to simplify, but I always feel there are ways to simplify thoughtfully, if the media actually WANTED to be thoughful. But that in itself is an oxymoron, ahaha.

OMG LOTTERY, WHY WON'T YOU LET ME WIN YOU. :( :( :( :(

[bossymarmalade]

Don't forget her kimono!