OOC Question: Theorycrafting - Talents

[jadall]

So, I'm not sure what the level of interest in theorycrafting is for this community but I aim to find out today. That said, theorycrafting can sometimes turn into a debate and it goes without saying that everyone will remain friendly even if they disagree. Behave! >8[

I just recently had the mixed experience of playing alongside a paladin that liked

Comments

[trackerceirin]

This all sort of falls under a similar umbrella as full-blown multi-classing on a character, to me-- the important part is just that it makes sense in an IC context, and that they're not using it to be OP (I'm the stealthiest assassin rogue ever AND ALSO an awesome blood knight with rank

[trackerceirin]

And also, on further thought and turning of the brain-gears: one of the things that influences how people take class crossover is their thoughts on -how- things work ICly, especially magic. Hand gestures, vocal components, reagents. Exactly how difficult -is- it to cast when your arm/hand movement is restricted? Will the vocal component be enough for some spells and not for others?

As I see it, Light-wielders are pretty force-of-will, I JUDGE YOU WITH THE LIGHT AND THUS IT HAPPENS whereas the other casters have more spells with cast times and the magic in general seems a lot more theory-based. Cleric vs. wizard. Which is the essential difference, imo, between someone like a paladin and a mage in heavy armor- the paladin is less restricted based on the nature of their magic.

Of course, that's not how everyone sees it, I know more than one mage played as not needing those components of the spell, and this isn't even touching druids and shamans (partly because lol hi 6 a.m. how are you).

[jadall]

I like your theory of frost is frost is frost, I'll admit. In a lot of cases the spells used by different classes are only different practical applications of the same concept. It would be silly to not think that a mage could use something similar to Path of Frost because, again, why not?

Peoples varying views on practical application of magic definitely throws a wrench into things, as well. I would imagine that if you're about to do something that might be regarded as an asspull it would be best to give your partner a headsup and explain your reasoning. Not that this is the most conducive effort when you're doing walk-up. x.x

[trackerceirin]

Yeah, giving people a heads-up is usually advisable if you have tweaks to the character that go outside their class, imo. Just to avoid the knee-jerk UM SCUSE ME WTF ARE YOU DOING THERE.

That's really why I tend to play my former-hunter, now-mage privately. She was mainly a beastmaster and relied heavily on the skills of her animals, and she didn't lose that affinity when she put away her leathers and blades. ICly she still has a couple of capable combat animals, but they mostly just compensate for her sort of sucking at magical combat (spend 100 years as a melee hunter and see how quick you pick up spell-flinging. WHAT DO YOU MEAN I CAN'T STAB WITH ICE LANCE.)

[vswest]

This is actually a very good question and I have MANY FEELS on it, but they will have to wait until I am done with this essay. Or until you post my essay prompts as your OOC questions. I think you should go for it.

Really looking forward to reading these! It's a fine line to walk with not being OP, but I think it can lead to a lot of cool sand-boxing. And really, it's a fine line to walk to not be OP with even just your class abilities.

like
the example I always use is snake trap, usually for why I don't like to /duel things

Hunters have snake trap. But how many characters actually carry snakes around with them, or have time to set up traps in a close fight? Obv. a bit of a different story from using traps in emoted stuff over a period of time, but still.

And that's why Qilin carries a snake around.

RIGHT ESSAY, real answer later. Dis question. The answers will be delicious.

[jadall]

Haha, this was pretty much the answer I got from Aen last night.x) I'm out of essay period (mostly) and am currently slogging through the deluge of tests that come before finals, thank god.

You will write a most magnificent essay and then return to us. Until then, GO.

[blightheart]

A very good question, and one that I've wrestled with myself for quite a while. Nik was a ranger-hopeful before he was a death knight, but I've hesitated to give him the IC-ability to use any kind of ranged weapons... even though there's really no reason I can think of that he would have simply forgotten the skill, and even though it would have been very handy on many occasions.

The reason for that is pretty simple:

Once upon a time I was on alliance side, long before Nik even existed. There was some kind of a bar fight that broke out, and a death knight was involved. The death knight pulled a gun. The backlash from the other players was immediate and strong: You can't do that! It took a while to get the scene back on track but in the meantime it was very awkward and uncomfortable. Even though I didn't play the death knight, I wondered how many people were still irritated with her use of the gun, even though she defended it in much the way you'd expect- Why not? - and people seemed to drop the issue

[jadall]

Let's start with the general concept of Death Knights and their retainment of past abilities because it's something I've done a lot of head-tilting at. People to have wildly different opinions on the issue, and they often like to pass those opinions as fact which doesn’t help when trying to sift through the deluge for something helpful

[thistle_chaser]

My reasoning: muscle memory.

Thistle says HI THERE.

Thistle doesn't remember being a ranger, but it's muscle memory that came into play for him 'remembering' that he can shoot. I had a whole scene worked out, but unfortunately I never got to RP it out. He was in the AH, and though he's always nearly broke, he spotted an old bow for sale (second or third hand, not great quality even new). He picked it up and it felt right in his hand. He had no conscious memories of shooting, but his body knew what to do and it felt right to do it. He wasn't a marksman from the get-go, he had to learn the weapon and strengthen his muscles again, but he got there eventually

[theashwake]

I typed a massive thing. I'm going to condense it down.

When you're doing any sort of theorycrafting involving what your character can do you need to ask a couple things:

Could they? Could your character physically or mentally do this? Could your priest who has spent their life meditating and honing their mind to channel the Light randomly pick up a three inch thick wall of steel the size of their torso?

Would they? Sure, your toned, athletic rogue could wear a mail shirt but would they? Would they trade a bit more protection for something heavy and noisy that may reduce their flexibility and stealth?

Should they? Sure, your rogue uses poison and guns according to game mechanics so it stands to reason that they could dip a bullet in Wyvern venom for a hunter-like shot but should they? Game mechanics can be a nice checks and balance system to keep people from being too freaking OP. A lot of theorycrafting to allow people to do things game mechanics don't can unbalance things

[jadall]

I hadn’t actually considered casting times and how they probably aren’t realistically portrayed in the game, mostly because I shy away from casters. You’re 100% right though and there are certain talents/abilities that are probably more like rituals than anything else

[theashwake]

I've never been a fight that ICly took an hour. But that is a weakness I play too, running out of mana.

I don't think everything is like riding a bike. Ok, so you used to be a crack shot but you haven't touched a gun for years because you've been focusing every fiber of your being into controlling the Light. You really can't expect to pick the gun back up and still be as good as you used to be.

I hate the saying "It's just like riding a bike". I'm pretty sure if I tried to ride a bike now, after not having ridden since I was 12, I would wobble all over the place and crash. Some things in WoW, I think people would retain. For example, if you used to be a tracker, you wouldn't really forget how to track, at least I don't think so. But you don't need to roll a hunter just to track or something. The issue with dual classing, as with all things, is doing it well. Which most people I run into don't. B[

so long it needed two posts

[awhisperofdusk]

This is something I struggle a lot with, actually

2/2

[awhisperofdusk]

But there's this instinctual gut NO that comes forward when classes that powerful start having more abilities. Mages, for example, are intensely OP if they're battle-oriented. Teleportation, forcing people to change shape, putting /fire/ in people-- all these things can be game-breaking already, and tagging extra abilities on makes the problem even worse. For many people whose characters are on the lower end of the totem-pole of ~super magical awesome~ ability, like rogues, this seems like taking Godzilla and giving him laser beams

Re: so long it needed two posts

[blightheart]

A death knight who was a rogue pre-death would have some idea of how to use daggers and do things like kidney shot or stealth. It might be harder for them now-- years of death and such making them rusty-- but the basics would still be there. They'd never be as good as someone whose career it was, but they'd be better than average. Much better.

I have to say something about this because it's actually one of my twitchy points, because death knights and daggers are a splendid example of game mechanics interfering with common sense.

A death knight is a master of blades and specializes in stabbing things in the face, but they're incapable of using any blade shorter than... what, a foot? More? Some of those "daggers" in game are awfully compensatory if you catch my drift... But seriously, look at this. Compare Dirk's Command vs Keleseth's Blade of Evocation. Guess which one is the dagger? Yeah, the one that gnome can't even wear without leaving a groove in the ground

Re: so long it needed two posts

[awhisperofdusk]

I'd argue there's a difference between being able to stab someone with a dagger, and being able to wield it in a skilled manner, which rogues are especially trained for.

Death knights are shown to have been trained in larger weapons, which doesn't preclude daggers, true, but doesn't mean they know how to wield them like a rogue would, or a death knight who used to be a rogue. It's the same for someone like Aenstrian-- he can use daggers in game, and I write him as having some knowledge beyond 'pointy end goes in', but he'll never be able to fight with daggers the way a rogue could. A dagger is the bread and butter of a rogue. There are different styles for every type of blade, and I'm not sure Arthas would be training his death knights to use daggers. I imagine most skill with daggers would have to be of a personal initiative.

And Blizzard's designs rarely make sense. I'm using 'dagger' in the sense of what the word is supposed to mean, not Blizzard's strange ideas of bigger=better.