Comments | lds: Birth Certificates for Dummies

lds

Birth Certificates for Dummies

Apr 09, 2011 13:44

Donald Trump has been on some news-talk shows lately trying to bring credibility to the birther movement. Most of what he's said has been rather obviously and stupidly wrong, but he's garnering so much attention from the sensationalist media that it needs to be squashed right here and now ( Read more... )

Comments 8

pasquin April 9 2011, 15:35:37 UTC

I learned something interesting. A woman, a relative?, is reputed to have admitted that she was present at Obama's birth-in Kenya. This little nugget can be mined at all these birther sites.

Problem is: later in the unquoted part of the interview, she corrects the misunderstanding (mistranslation?) and states that Obama was born in Hawaii.

What makes a myth live despite all of the facts? I think it's because it is so believable. Obama is American, but his experience is unlike a lot of native born Americans (Like me, though I'm *really* not from here) and this 'foreign-ness'(the Prez pronounces Pakistan like nobody from Kansas) makes a birther claim seem credible.

This is xenophobia with a wrapper of constitution.

lds April 9 2011, 16:40:35 UTC

Yeah, and that "wrapper of constitution" further reflects badly on me when viewed by those who can't differentiate between "wrapper of constitution" and "the substance of the constitution."

"Birther-ism" is just another anti-personality cult, just like rabid and irrational Bush hatred, just from the other end. It's the inverse of Mormonism and Scientology, basing faith on the idea that everything an individual does is eeeeevylll instead of saintly (including, apparently, being born). Hebrews 11:1 tells us that faith explicitly dismisses empirical evidence ("not seen") in favor of wishful thinking ("hoped for"). Birthers are just this: a religion. A cult.

Suckers.

rev_mac April 9 2011, 15:49:15 UTC

I still say he is a Keynesian!

lds April 9 2011, 16:25:58 UTC

We certainly do have plenty of empirical evidence from which to draw that conclusion!

Did you see that video from the DC rally, where they had that on a sign and were recording reactions to it? Though I laughed a little, I didn't find it funny... mostly disgusting.

rev_mac April 10 2011, 03:47:18 UTC

I must admit to my lack of originality, that rally is where I got the idea.

I found it (the video from the rally) to be mostly pathetic myself, the most humor I got from it was the people who actually understood what they where being asked, the rest, a waste of good air.

(The comment has been removed)

lds April 11 2011, 20:03:33 UTC

Oh no! Not radiata_prime! I use some of the topics you write about when debating with the fiscally irresponsible. Please, I beg you not to sacrifice your credibility on this particular Mount Moriah.

I'm impressed that factcheck.org holds up a "high resolution" "copy" of a certificate PRINTED WITH A LASER PRINTER, which it says *right on the certificate itself* as the original birth certificate.

This is the sort of thing that makes any corporate wage-earners shake our heads and cluck our tongues. Having received payroll checks processed by third-party processing companies, we've seen this exact same situation described in exactly the same words: it's written on our paychecks! Yes the paper can be forged. Yes the signature is machine-reproduced, rather than written by the (no doubt tired) hand of a finance clerk. Yes it's printed by a laser printer. But it says "original" on it too, because it's not a photocopy of an official document; it is the official document despite having been mass-produced.

Why is that check good when we take it to the bank? ( ... )

lds April 11 2011, 20:04:43 UTC

Most of the hoohah involves the Constitutional hair-splitting...

Unfortunately it doesn't. Donald Trump and some of my Republican coworkers are making a fuss about the piece of paper itself. Wouldn't it be nice if they would all just shut up, give a wistful sigh, and just be regretful, as you are, that "Every Supreme Court that potentially ever had to deal with the issue has punted."

Hell, that looks to be stock paper that anyone could forge. Personally, I think there's a legitimate question if that piece of paper is all that's there. It gives rise to a rebuttable presumption of citizenship, but it's hardly conclusive. The signed original which is supposed to be filed with the state of Hawaii? Who knows? Certainly no one's produced evidence of that which would satisfy requirements of authenticity.

Once again, as I wrote above, Trump is wrong when he says this. Modern database printouts, signed and sealed, do in fact satisfy requirements of authenticity for the military, the State Department, employers, and, much as we Obama dislikers ( ... )

lds April 11 2011, 20:16:32 UTC

I was wondering if Hawaii provides photostats of original long form birth certificates from back in 1961, and it turns out they do.

No, they used to, back before the system was digitized. That was how they fulfilled requests for copies. We know what timeframe Obama requested his; it's printed right on it!

President Obama himself certainly has the standing to retrieve his own original records at need... The President could settle the matter in a heart beat by requesting that the state produce the original records...

Factually incorrect. From the article cited above:

Wisch, the spokesman for the attorney general's office, said state law does not in fact permit the release of "vital records," including an original "record of live birth"-even to the individual whose birth it records.

"It's a Department of Health record and it can't be released to anybody," he said. Nor do state laws have any provision that authorizes such records to be photocopied, Wisch said. If Obama wanted to personally visit the state health department, he would ( ... )