Some Thoughts on Elven Sanitation

[lissas_elves]

It's a dirty job, but somebody's got to wonder about it ... This subject is not for the squeamish!

Thank you to Cal for betaing.

‘On Elven Sanitation’ or ‘The Joys of Indoor Plumbing’
Introduction:

I’m sure The Last Homely House had running water, indoor WC and bathrooms - these clever Noldor did so like to invent things - but how do you

Comments

[morethmusing]

Excellent! Elven long-drops :D

Oh, they can add ash from the fires to help kill any smell. It works well!

(I really would locate the tanner a long, long way from any habitation, however... *Ewwwww*)

[lissas_elves]

lol - glad you appreciate my handling of this delicate subject.

Lethe also mentioned that ashes were good for covering the piles. I'll be sure to keep it in mind. However, Greenpa assured us that if properly constructed, the potty house didn't smell much. I don't plan on trying it out for myself, though. *g*

[morethmusing]

*Grin* I grew up with only a long-drop (and no running water). It's perfectly true that they don't smell much - except for the rainy night when the skunk got in there, of course...

[lissas_elves]

lol about the skunk. I bet somebody got a nasty surprise next morning. :-)

Well, it's good to get Greenpa's info confirmed from an independent source. Makes me even happier about the little Elven potty house. *g*

[galantha_nivala]

For what it's worth, my father grew up in a house without an indoor toilet. There was an outhouse in the backyard. When things got too full a new hole would be dug and the outhouse moved.

He was absolutely disgusted by the idea of a toilet inside the house. It seemed incredibly unhygenic to him to have human waste inside.

[lissas_elves]

He was absolutely disgusted by the idea of a toilet inside the house. It seemed incredibly unhygenic to him to have human waste inside.

Well, when you think of it he did have a point, didn't he? Hmmmm... wonder whether my Wood-elves might not feel the same of the indoor plumbing in Imladris. Would you mind if I borrowed this for a story some day? *makes puppy eyes*

[galantha_nivala]

Please feel free to use it whenever you like. Just let me know when and where so I can read it. :)

At the time his reaction surprised me, too. When I thought about it, it made sense.

[lissas_elves]

Thanks - will do!

(Sorry for the late answer. I've been away for a couple of days.)

[heartofoshun]

Galadriel tripping gingerly along between the mellyrn, checking the ground to see that she doesn’t step in ... no, neither can I.I actually had not imagined that, but somehow it appeals to me. She has a tendency in most stories to get treated with far too much reverence

[lissas_elves]

Oshun, good to see we agree on Noldorin plumbing: they just MUST have had it!

As to Elves bathing on the road, I, too think that they would whenever possible. With their appreciation of beauty and their higher resistance to cold, there were good reasons for them to do it. But I suppose one also has to consider the risk involved; it wouldn't do to be surprised by a band of orcs while wearing nothing but a lather ... a most embarassing way to end your days.

Oh - and I'm glad that you're not shocked by the Galadriel-image; actually, none have complained about it so far (to my surprise).

[lethe_lloyd]

Galadriel " Almost-Virgin-Queen-Mary " and yes, the Blessed Virgin reverence with which some writers tend to treat her, bores me, and since reading Oshun's story with Celeborn in it, I am becoming more fascinated with him. She may have been wise and powerful, but there's no sex-appeal to her - there is to Celeborn, and now I shall forever envisage him the way Oshun wrote him. * waggles eyebrows *

it wouldn't do to be surprised by a band of orcs while wearing nothing but a lather...a most embarrassing way to end your days.

If Elves could smell Mortal's, I'm sure they could smell and sense the proximity of orcs, even upwind XD .
Battle the orcs, then have a bath 8D

[lissas_elves]

If Elves could smell Mortal's, I'm sure they could smell and sense the proximity of orcs, even upwind XD .
Battle the orcs, then have a bath 8D

lol - yes, that would be the proper way to go about it! The Elves would need a bath afterwards, anyway.

[inzilbeth_liz]

Oh Lissa, what fun you have started here!
I'm not even going to begin to tell you how much of my day I spend shovelling poo from various different species, but lets just say I feel quite at home reading all this!
I did see something recently on building hobbit homes and the compost toilet was mentioned. Apparently you have to keep the poo separate from the pee and that way you don't get smells. Can't say I'm totally convinced by that!

[lissas_elves]

*g* Well, it really has been fun so far!

As to shovelling poo, I've only got sheep so it's a once-a-year occurence only. ;-)

(to those who think that sounds disgusting, I can assure you that the sheep's room is usually so dry I can sit in the bedding without getting dirty - until the lambs are born, that is; the little ones do 'poo' some rather sticky stuff ...)

Greenpa did explain about the importance of keeping the water contents low in the piles; IIRC it was something to do with aerob vs. anaerob bacteria. I don't really get the theory behind it - just need to know whether it works and it seems it does. :-)

[inzilbeth_liz]

You're quite right about sheep poo! When the ewes first come inside for lambing, its fine, but once the lambs are born, then you have to watch where you sit if you don't want to end up in a sticky orange mess!

My daily routine includes dogs 3 times a day [especially since Pae joined us], chickens once a day and horses once a day. The sheep sheds I do by hand over a period of months as I can't get a machine in there, and the cowshed needs a tractor to shift the mountain the cows produce over the winter. Now I'm sure that's more than you ever wanted to know about me poo collection tasks!

And I meant to say earlier, how much I enjoyed all your reasoning here.

[lissas_elves]

The sheep sheds I do by hand

Yes, it's the same here, only I've got a condition which means I just can't do it myself and every year I have to find someone to help with this. It's really hard work because the straw and ... stuff ... is knitted together in one big mat which one has to tear apart and it requires quite a lot of strength. Bet you've got strong arms by now! :-)

And I meant to say earlier, how much I enjoyed all your reasoning here.

lol - thanks! It's all meant in good fun, but that doesn't mean it couldn't have been done this way. Though I wouldn't wonder if there were people out there who said Elves don't poo ...

[lindahoyland]

An interesting essay with reasonable conclusions. I usually write humans and mention them taking a walk behind the trees when need be and if anyone is locked in a dungeon, a bucket is always there.I try to be realistic without going into detail. I've decided I'd miss indoor plumbing too much to ant to live in M-e.

[lissas_elves]

Thank you, Linda. I'm glad you think my solution is reasonable.

"I try to be realistic without going into detail."

That seems fair - after all, we readers don't really want to know much about the gory details - but it's good to know that the auther actually did think of this subject, too; makes the story more realistic, IMO.

As to missing indoor plumbing, I maintain that Elrond must have had it in Imladris! ;-)

(However, the discussion is still running on GoI as to what the situation was in Edoras...)

[lindahoyland]

I've read stories galore where the heroes are locked up for weeks without as much as bucket and it does come across as unrealistic,as we all know that nature calls!

I wonder a lot if Gondor could have had indoor plumbing,though servants carry buckets of water when Aragorn wants a bath in my stories.Maybe Gimli and his friends could install some? I'm doubtful Edoras had such mod cons,as I believe the culture was based on the saxons and vikings.

[lissas_elves]

As to MT, I'd imagine they could have used the same solution as many castles when it comes to nature calls. Adaneth gave me these links: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garderobe

When out in the wilds: http://books.google.com/books?id=xTA72Gx....=result#PPR1,M1

In Edoras, perhaps leading the waste products through reeds would work? Haarajot mentioned this method in the discussion on GoI, and while it wouldn't work in Lórien IMO, it would be just fine for Edoras. Furhtermore, Súlriel mentioned "SST" (sweet smelling toilets) or vault toilets.

Lots of ideas! :-)