Comments | merrymelody: McGonagall and Umbridge

merrymelody

McGonagall and Umbridge

Aug 14, 2004 11:53

McGonagall - described by both the narrative and many fans (adella711 and I both recently took polls reflecting this, so even 'subversive' readers such as slashers seem to agree) as the fairest teacher at Hogwarts.
Umbridge - loathed by text and audience alike.
But are they so different?

( Read more... )

hp, meta

Comments 55

sistermagpie August 14 2004, 08:07:59 UTC

It's weird, but sometimes it seems like really what you've got in HP is a universe filled with many different characters, but who all fit within a very narrow range of people. It seems strange to say that because it's not like all the characters run together at all, but you can have a lot of different variations on a single theme. It's like I've said in the past where basically this world is divided into bullies, victims and protectors--with the difference between bullies and protectors being completely imaginary a lot of the time. But basically I think everybody in the universe, at least underneath, has the same ideas about things as JKR has. (That's probably the way it is in all books, I guess, to a certain extent.) They may be on opposite sides or express it differently, or be too afraid to act on it or whatever, but basically everyone understands each other. Like, if you dropped Frodo Baggins into this school he probably couldn't be the character he is in his own story, if that makes sense. Just as Harry Potter could never ( ... )

merrymelody August 14 2004, 08:51:18 UTC

It's weird, but sometimes it seems like really what you've got in HP is a universe filled with many different characters, but who all fit within a very narrow range of people.

Especially female characters.
There's the Feminine ones, who are mainly concerned with baking, or giggling, or boys - Pansy, Molly, Umbridge to an extent, Lavendar, Parvati, Cho.
Then the tough, butch ones: Millicent, Grubbly Plank, McGonagall, Tonks.
Then there's the Sassy ones (can anyone tell the difference between say, Ginny in OotP and Hermione in say, PoA? Or Lily in OotP...), who'll right wrongs and are willing to defend the underdog, as long as the underdog behaves in a properly grateful manner. And they're attractive to males at the same time! Woo hoo, girl power!

I suppose boy-wise, there's God Dumbledore, whiny bitches (Harry, Draco, Sirius, Snape) and boys who seem useless, but gosh darn it have pluck! (Neville, Ron, James post Prank?)

Wouldn't you love to hear Hermione's arguments applied to, say, Bush's policies: "He doesn't like nuclear ( ... )

sistermagpie August 14 2004, 08:08:09 UTC

(con't)

McGonnogal is no more able than anyone else to be honest about Neville's losing the password for instance--yeah, blame the student for being stupid but lets not hear a word about the teacher who was actively protecting Sirius Black or demand to know how Black got close enough to steal Neville's password to begin with. Not to mention, she gets teary-eyed thinking about those loveable sadistic bullies James and Sirius--she, like everyone else in this universe--doesn't seem impressed by kindness at all. It's just all about power. Yes, they were bullies, but they got away with it to the point where it was just fun for them and that makes them cool. It's the incompetents that are the trouble--I'm sure Neville will become a favorite once his ass-kicking gets noticed. School's being staffed by incompetants? So what? They're our incompetents! Harry and George were stupid for having attacked Draco in public and so gotten themselves kicked off the team; Draco's forfeited all right to consideration having made them do it. He ( ... )

merrymelody August 14 2004, 08:36:29 UTC

Ishtar made an interesting post about intelligence not being wildly popular in the HPverse (actually, iirc, you commented on it), or at least, not being valued as highly as 'feelings' - Hagrid's feelings in PoA, for example, are presented as more important than say, Lucius Malfoy's or Draco's (because they have none, being Grr, Evil!111) or indeed, the law.
Likewise, Trelawney's feelings in OotP are more important to Dumbledore, the God figure; than the student's right to an education.
As you said - everyone behaved like brats in Quidditch, but the text implicitly states who the sore losers are: whoever opposes Gryffindor.
McGonagall and Alicia both reprimand the boys, but of course, who's going to listen to girls? Plus, they're not exactly opposing violence, more like:
"Try and be more sneaky, next time. The train is a great place to assault people, as you know!"

(I loathe the whole 'McGonagall would have punished Fred and George! They would have got detention!' *slow handclaps ( ... )

tinderblast August 14 2004, 08:44:57 UTC

If there's one thing guaranteed to get a rise out of a guy, it's to insult his mother. Or so popular culture has taught me.

merrymelody August 14 2004, 08:47:03 UTC

Or call him 'chicken', according to Back to the Future (and don't even get me started on that.)

Thread 16

tinderblast August 14 2004, 08:43:28 UTC

I'm just worried about an underage Neville being 'leered at' by trolls. Oh, my.

merrymelody August 14 2004, 08:46:06 UTC

They're the only ones who'd want to leer at Neville, I think.

*hides from ficbymarks and other Neville fans*

tinderblast August 14 2004, 08:52:49 UTC

*laughs*

*quickly joins you behind the curtain*

merrymelody August 14 2004, 09:04:09 UTC

*reminds brodie of Matthew Lewis' crippling inability to act*
*laughs harder*
*chokes, and spits water everywhere*
Ah well, I guess I deserved that...

Thread 16

ishtar79 August 14 2004, 13:29:15 UTC

I love you *so much* for writing this post ( ... )

merrymelody August 14 2004, 13:57:08 UTC

I don't hate McGonagall or anything (she stopped Moody in the ferret scene, so she has my eternal admiration for that at least), but I do get sick of the 'McGonagall is the fairest teacher in the school because she's willing to take points off her house!'
Well yeah, but she or Albus will just add them on again, so way to prove a point there!
*slow handclap*
Kind of parallels Molly and Arthur in the Good Cop/Bad Cop dynamic, wherein the women nag, and the boys ignore them in favour of good old Arthur and Albus who feed them sweeties and don't insist on boring old rules.

Sometimes, I think the only remotely fair teacher in the whole institution is Binns, given that he can't even remember his students' names. That's...a depressing thought.

Indeed. Maya once made a point, I think, of noting that despite the Gryffindor students attitude of 'You don't pay attention in class? You deserve to get attacked', no-one pays attention in Binn's class (I think the exact quote was 'Binns slash Harry's arm for not paying attention, why dontcha?'As ( ... )

t0ra_chan August 14 2004, 14:22:14 UTC

but I do get sick of the 'McGonagall is the fairest teacher in the school because she's willing to take points off her house!'
Then Percy must be the fairest prefect since he also took points from Harry and Ron in CoS. And as far as I know they cannot give points. And still he is the most disliked Weasley in fandom. Yeah, how dare he do what his mother wants from him or sticking to the rules. He is also the only Weasley child who openly worries about his siblings. He was the only one who noticed that something was wrong with Ginny in CoS and ran immediately up to Ron into the lake after the second task. And still people think his behavior is justification for the twins to bully him all the time. *sighs*

sistermagpie August 14 2004, 14:52:25 UTC

This is what frustrates me sometimes...when I like or dislike a character I'm really interested to know why. I'm not saying I'm always completely honest with myself, but I really do want to know what I'm reacting to and what that says about me. So it's frustrating when people throw out these easy things like, "I like McGonnogal because she's fair!" or "I hate Draco because I hate bullies and racists!" without really looking at the character or being honest. Mostly you're just sort of complimenting yourself--I'm a great person in that I love fairness and am not racist or a bully. It's fine to like McGonnogal but come on, are you sure it's because she's so fair? Or is it because she obviously likes your guys better and gives them brooms? Do you hate the twins? Because you can't pretend you just hate bullies and like the twins. Similarly, do you despise, say, Scarlet O'Hara? Because Malfoy's "racism" is pretty far removed from our own world, so much that the parallel might not even work, and it's really not his defining ( ... )

Thread 6

fiera_316 August 15 2004, 06:44:48 UTC

*fangirls you insanely*

I think I'm getting a little creepy, but I'm really starting to adore seeing these morally defective sides of the "good guys".

So having ones father purchase brooms is 'buying (your) way in' (as presented by the authorial avatar Hermione, interestingly a character who is often compared to McGonagall; and with no arguments against it, by the narrative itself) but having one's Head of House both elect you to the team and purchase you expensive athletic equipment is fair and square? Although, I was a little iffy about this. I don't think we ever see Harry agree with this viewpoint given by Hermione in the books (although he doesn't disagree either, from what we've seen; though that could also be due to his simply not caring enough about the whole matter, rather than agreeing with Hermione). Come to think of it, do we see Ron agree with this viewpoint, either? *races for her books ( ... )

merrymelody August 15 2004, 07:12:57 UTC

*fangirls you insanely*

Ooh, my first fangirl! ;)

I don't think we ever see Harry agree with this viewpoint given by Hermione in the books (although he doesn't disagree either, from what we've seen; though that could also be due to his simply not caring enough about the whole matter, rather than agreeing with Hermione). Come to think of it, do we see Ron agree with this viewpoint, either?

Good point. We see Oliver Wood reinforce it in PoA re: 'Blah blah so and so will regret the day they let that piece of slime Malfoy buy his way onto the team', but then he was never known for his cool-headed clear thinking.
Although Quidditch-wise we do have Hooch proclaiming she'd never seen such cheating as Malfoy's in PoA, which either makes her an extremely inexperienced referee or a wild exaggerator (seriously. You've never seen that particular piece of cheating? According to someone who I conveniently can't remember, that move is listed in the Quidditch Through the Ages, so it can't be that rare ( ... )

sistermagpie August 15 2004, 08:00:58 UTC

I think what it comes down to, the important thing, is that the author wants us, the audience, to assume Draco bought his way onto the team. This, of course, brings up the fact that there would be consequences to this, namely that Malfoy would suck. But that would hardly be interesting, if Harry couldn't look like a big hero while beating Malfoy. Thus we get an exciting game, but it must be because Malfoy is the most amazing cheater ever. And what is he doing exactly? It seems like the type of thing that would be a pretty common foul in any contact sport ( ... )

sistermagpie August 15 2004, 08:06:25 UTC

p.s. On Hermione, her own sticking to "the rules" is always very slippery to me as well. When she says that about a reward for breaking the rules, I'm not sure it's so much the author telling us that's wrong. I mean, on one hand Hermione's big moment in just about any book comes from the moment she tosses the rules out the window and starts writing the laws herself, so it's hard to take these kinds of things seriously ( ... )

Thread 5