"But I believe in Joss' sadistic genius. He'll find a way to make Spuffy angstastic again."
Well sadly Whedon just just go and f*ck himself for I at least am fed up with his bloody angst and having to read into things instead of having them out in front of me in the text.
"We were explicitly told that Buffy still has romantic feelings for Spike (she daydreams about Spuffy sex in a Joss-penned scene in #37)."
Were we? I must have missed that bit then because all I saw was her daydreaming about her ex doing what she thinks he does best. There wasn't anything in there that said love to me I'm afraid.
Whedon and co will have to do a lot better then that If they want me to believe that side of things. Sorry.
To make Spuffy ship dramatically viable, Joss has work to hard to find a radical new way to make our favorite blondes utterly miserable and heartbroken because of their feelings.
With other words they are angsting for angst's sake. That's precisely why it doesn't work for me.
With other words they are angsting for angst's sake.
No, they're angsting because it's the best way to explore human condition. Angelus arc, Spuffy is season 6 - these two arcs were the most angstastic, and the most memorable aspects of the show.
But they only worked (and actually reflected the human condition) because they had cause and effect and character motivation behind them. In S6 you had two strongly motivated characters, who's needs clashed and spiralled into disaster.
In S8 you just have angst, because they can't think of a different way to make it interesting. In S6 the angst was the result of motivations. In S8, let there be angst IS the motivation. If there's just angst no matter what it loses any real meaning to me.
Your idea is fascinating. And I see the hints. The power-up to god status would have occurred in "Get It Done", only in Season 7 Buffy refused. In Season 8, because she was so in despair and then because the chains holding her down were covered in the velvet of Angel--she gave in.
She makes terrible mistakes because she lets her heart make decisions for her. Because she's not a general by nature.I think it's more she keeps trying to cut off her heart in Season 7 and be hard general. In Season 8, she's learned that doesn't work, so she tries to connect to people, but now it's the fame and her even-greater leadership role that isolate her. Both circumstances set her up for despair and a breaking point, only in Season 7 it was self-inflicted internally because of outside forces, while in Season 8 it's inflicted by outside forces--some who she instigated (leading an army "somehow", robbing a bank) and the Twilight prophecy (which is a reaction to the "Chosen" spell, but so outlandish there was no way to predict it--and the "Chosen"
( ... )
OTOH, Jossverse is ultimately about redemption, and it means that eventually Buffy will forgive Angel.
Honestly, I'm not convinced. Forgiving Angel? Sure. But being forever in love with Angel? It's my opinion that Buffy's forever love is largely fantasy (in love with the idea of love) and that she can only forever love Angel because she doesn't know Angel. I think Season 8 was all about putting Angel's darkness front and center to drive it home. I think, beyond making a point to the audience, that it was about making a point to Buffy. She can't tell Angel and Spike apart--well, now she can.
Apocalypses are dime a dozen in Jossverse and Bangel is the signature couple of the franchize.Apocalypses are a dime a dozen. Murdering Giles happens once. I think the point of "it matters who kills you" is that it matters to Buffy who killed Giles. And this is worse than a curse that keeps you from being together, but allows you to linger. When you can't be with someone because you can't look at them, that's not where sweet forever
( ... )
Re: continued...angeariaJanuary 21 2011, 16:19:58 UTC
Think I covered that with why it was perfectly in character for Buffy to toss that in. :D
Spike's way is truth, but brutal truth. He's essentially slapping her in the face with it. Don't see why she has to enjoy being slapped with the truth, so she snarks back defensively. As people noted, it calls back to "Touched" and Spike not so smoothly saying, "You're insufferable."
[eta] All right if we agree to disagree here? I don't really want to debate about it and I realize my reply was opening that door again.
I did read the 'why did we ever break up' line differently than most people: I thought it was sarcasm because he was criticizing her... and she wanted to make him stop giving her a hard time.
Yeah, I agree it's a defensive move. She snarks back because she feels like he's leading up to even bigger criticism. Instead, he undercuts her with his complete faith and that brings her to tears. So she runs.
I absolutely loved this finale to S8, and I found it full of comedy gold.
Yay! Another fan who doesn't hate it!
I actually found Giles leaving everything (except THE book) to Faith to be hysterically funny, and both Faith and Buffy misunderstanding his intentions to be even funnier. Of course Buffy will never be homeless, she never has been because she is always surrounded by friends and family. Faith has always been homeless, and she was hesitant to let Giles in... I think he was trying to prove to her that even in death he would keep his bargain and have her back.
I found Giles leaving everything (except THE book) to Faith to be poignant - but Faith and Buffy misunderstanding his intentions are very funny. It's obvious that he wrote his will before shit hit the fan, when Buffy has her castle and heaps of money.
I found Kennedy blaming Buffy for the breakup with Willow to be funny.... But I was assuming that Willow was saying that she was still far from over Tara (you don't get over the love of your life by dating Kennedy, at
( ... )
I thought it was sarcasm because he was criticizing her...
See Rebcake's comment above. He isn't criticizing--he's saying that's what most others think (which, he isn't wrong), and that he "knows the truth"--which wasn't that.
I do like yours, however. Especially the fighting vs. war waging, and the different skill sets needed for each. Also, this:
in Jossverse once you start making deals with your conscience, you can't stop
is very well-put.
I'm a comics person, so I tend to be less than forgiving of where the series fell short as a comic book. I never doubt my ability to lose myself in the medium, because I've been doing so for decades and have even gone so far as to write sad little articles and academic papers on the subject. I don't have a problem with epic sweep and phlebotinum. But I do have problems with several of the things that you categorize as loose ends. The characters should make sense and the readers should be able to know, clearly, what's going on. Sadly, in Season 8, sometimes that happened and sometimes it didn't. Increasingly it didn't. Without those things, what's happening has no impact
( ... )
I read it and I liked it, although I disagree with some of your points.
I'm a comics person, so I tend to be less than forgiving of where the series fell short as a comic book.
I have to admit that BtVS is the first comic I read. The first issues were pure torture: I didn't know how to read, I missed a lot of stuff. I asked stupidest questions. I'm still not sure if I read everything correctly.
But I do have problems with several of the things that you categorize as loose ends. The characters should make sense and the readers should be able to know, clearly, what's going on. Sadly, in Season 8, sometimes that happened and sometimes it didn't. Increasingly it didn't. Without those things, what's happening has no impact. I agree that many arcs, especially Meltzer's with his sentient universe, are too complex and often don't make sense at all. But I wonder if it was Joss' intention to put the audience into Buffy's shoes. People who try to change History, are usually defeated, because, in the
( ... )
Comments 144
Well sadly Whedon just just go and f*ck himself for I at least am fed up with his bloody angst and having to read into things instead of having them out in front of me in the text.
"We were explicitly told that Buffy still has romantic feelings for Spike (she daydreams about Spuffy sex in a Joss-penned scene in #37)."
Were we? I must have missed that bit then because all I saw was her daydreaming about her ex doing what she thinks he does best. There wasn't anything in there that said love to me I'm afraid.
Whedon and co will have to do a lot better then that If they want me to believe that side of things. Sorry.
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I admit, sometimes Jossverse becomes too angsty. But I like it. I cried, reading the last pages of issue 40. And I enjoyed it enormously.
all I saw was her daydreaming about her ex doing what she thinks he does best. There wasn't anything in there that said love to me I'm afraid.
Let's agree to disagree, Sue. I respect your opinion, but - let's see what happens in season 9 (if you plan to read it).
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With other words they are angsting for angst's sake. That's precisely why it doesn't work for me.
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No, they're angsting because it's the best way to explore human condition. Angelus arc, Spuffy is season 6 - these two arcs were the most angstastic, and the most memorable aspects of the show.
Reply
In S8 you just have angst, because they can't think of a different way to make it interesting. In S6 the angst was the result of motivations. In S8, let there be angst IS the motivation. If there's just angst no matter what it loses any real meaning to me.
Reply
I more or less agree that Joss "framed up" Buffy: her real fall has happened before the season even started.
In S6 the angst was the result of motivations.
TWOP crowd still thinks that season 6 angst was the result of Marty Noxon's desire to ogle nekid Spike :)
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She makes terrible mistakes because she lets her heart make decisions for her. Because she's not a general by nature.I think it's more she keeps trying to cut off her heart in Season 7 and be hard general. In Season 8, she's learned that doesn't work, so she tries to connect to people, but now it's the fame and her even-greater leadership role that isolate her. Both circumstances set her up for despair and a breaking point, only in Season 7 it was self-inflicted internally because of outside forces, while in Season 8 it's inflicted by outside forces--some who she instigated (leading an army "somehow", robbing a bank) and the Twilight prophecy (which is a reaction to the "Chosen" spell, but so outlandish there was no way to predict it--and the "Chosen" ( ... )
Reply
Honestly, I'm not convinced. Forgiving Angel? Sure. But being forever in love with Angel? It's my opinion that Buffy's forever love is largely fantasy (in love with the idea of love) and that she can only forever love Angel because she doesn't know Angel. I think Season 8 was all about putting Angel's darkness front and center to drive it home. I think, beyond making a point to the audience, that it was about making a point to Buffy. She can't tell Angel and Spike apart--well, now she can.
Apocalypses are dime a dozen in Jossverse and Bangel is the signature couple of the franchize.Apocalypses are a dime a dozen. Murdering Giles happens once. I think the point of "it matters who kills you" is that it matters to Buffy who killed Giles. And this is worse than a curse that keeps you from being together, but allows you to linger. When you can't be with someone because you can't look at them, that's not where sweet forever ( ... )
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Or it could be a teasing way to imply the answer to the question: "Oh, right. You're an asshole."
Cute.
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Spike's way is truth, but brutal truth. He's essentially slapping her in the face with it. Don't see why she has to enjoy being slapped with the truth, so she snarks back defensively. As people noted, it calls back to "Touched" and Spike not so smoothly saying, "You're insufferable."
[eta] All right if we agree to disagree here? I don't really want to debate about it and I realize my reply was opening that door again.
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Yeah, I agree it's a defensive move. She snarks back because she feels like he's leading up to even bigger criticism. Instead, he undercuts her with his complete faith and that brings her to tears. So she runs.
Reply
Yay! Another fan who doesn't hate it!
I actually found Giles leaving everything (except THE book) to Faith to be hysterically funny, and both Faith and Buffy misunderstanding his intentions to be even funnier. Of course Buffy will never be homeless, she never has been because she is always surrounded by friends and family. Faith has always been homeless, and she was hesitant to let Giles in... I think he was trying to prove to her that even in death he would keep his bargain and have her back.
I found Giles leaving everything (except THE book) to Faith to be poignant - but Faith and Buffy misunderstanding his intentions are very funny. It's obvious that he wrote his will before shit hit the fan, when Buffy has her castle and heaps of money.
I found Kennedy blaming Buffy for the breakup with Willow to be funny.... But I was assuming that Willow was saying that she was still far from over Tara (you don't get over the love of your life by dating Kennedy, at ( ... )
Reply
See Rebcake's comment above. He isn't criticizing--he's saying that's what most others think (which, he isn't wrong), and that he "knows the truth"--which wasn't that.
Reply
I do like yours, however. Especially the fighting vs. war waging, and the different skill sets needed for each. Also, this:
in Jossverse once you start making deals with your conscience, you can't stop
is very well-put.
I'm a comics person, so I tend to be less than forgiving of where the series fell short as a comic book. I never doubt my ability to lose myself in the medium, because I've been doing so for decades and have even gone so far as to write sad little articles and academic papers on the subject. I don't have a problem with epic sweep and phlebotinum. But I do have problems with several of the things that you categorize as loose ends. The characters should make sense and the readers should be able to know, clearly, what's going on. Sadly, in Season 8, sometimes that happened and sometimes it didn't. Increasingly it didn't. Without those things, what's happening has no impact ( ... )
Reply
Reply
I read it and I liked it, although I disagree with some of your points.
I'm a comics person, so I tend to be less than forgiving of where the series fell short as a comic book.
I have to admit that BtVS is the first comic I read. The first issues were pure torture: I didn't know how to read, I missed a lot of stuff. I asked stupidest questions. I'm still not sure if I read everything correctly.
But I do have problems with several of the things that you categorize as loose ends. The characters should make sense and the readers should be able to know, clearly, what's going on. Sadly, in Season 8, sometimes that happened and sometimes it didn't. Increasingly it didn't. Without those things, what's happening has no impact. I agree that many arcs, especially Meltzer's with his sentient universe, are too complex and often don't make sense at all. But I wonder if it was Joss' intention to put the audience into Buffy's shoes. People who try to change History, are usually defeated, because, in the ( ... )
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