Попал еврей в рай. Осмотрелся, и восклицает «Как же здесь красиво!» И немедленно очутился в аду. Да за что же, спрашивается!? Ему рай понравился. ( Read more... )
R. Akiba said to them: When ye arrive at the stones of pure marble, say not, water, water! For it is said: He that speaketh falsehood shall not be established before mine eyes.
I am quite at a loss with Akiba's saying. I could suppose a meaning like "when you get there don't take mere crystal ('pure marble') for water [of life]" (i.e. "don't take the clarity of appearance for the clarity of substance" or something similar), which seems to agree with your understanding. This would find some support (a) in the fact that "water" is sometimes used for "water of life", (b) in Ex. 24:10 (at least as MN 1:28 understands it), (c) in Akiba's own quote from Ps. 101:7 ("falsehood" must be degrading enough to deserve such a judgment). Yet this is inconclusive, and contradicts the Soncino note on "say not, water, water!": "I.e., how can we proceed!" The note is hardly to be just dismissed, meanwhile it means something seemingly strange ("proceed and don't be scared by false obstacles!"??).
I googled "stones of pure marble" and the 1st thing I
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I should say that r. Akiba's buffling comment is way above my current theological paygrade. Somewhat at variance with the structure of the posting itself, I'd think that r. Simeon's saying seems simpler and helps us a bit towards understanding r. Akiba's; rather than conversely.
Of your references I agree with everything in 1st paragraph except "mere crystal" (see separate comment), and Soncino, with caveats (see below). R. Schneerson's explanation looks weak and questionable. 3Enoch/Hekalot and r. Yaakov are better, thanks.
I can throw in Rambam (MN 2:30) for good measure, who calls it "how clearly and distinctly this passage explains the subject for those who reflect on it!", and then proceeds to undermine this point with gratuitous(?) reference to meteorology. Yet again, perhaps here also "it was considered necessary to make this one of the most hidden secrets, in order to prevent the multitude from knowing it."
MN2:30 seems to identify the stones of pure marble with "water that above the firmament" (Gen. 1) which he says is no water but "higher matter". (He then indeed makes metaphysics serve as physics, following his day's philosophy that was hostage of his day's lack of physics but I don't think this matters.) So (his point is) it would be falsehood to call it water. So his view ("don't mistake more perfect [marble] for less perfect [water]") seems contrary to yours ("don't mistake less perfect [marble] for more perfect [water]", which is also "the Rebbe's" view]. Unless I miss your/his/Rebbe's points, which is quite possible.
contrary to yours .. less perfect [marble] for more perfect [water] This is NOT my view at all; and it is unclear what made you think so!? (Perhaps I might need to rephrase something, to clear this up?) I took this to be YOUR position, based on "don't take mere crystal ('pure marble') for water [of life]", in your root comment. I took exception to this view here, and further clarified meaning here.
Now, given that understanding I can tentatively accept Marble as more perfect holy than Water, on the theory that at Sinai Water was accessible to all Hebrews, whereas Marble/Tablets only to Moshe.
As to the upper waters, both the concept itself and relative rankings are ambivalent, Rambam doesn't articulate nuances enough. Arizal/Schneerson view that there's only one water, and no need to differentiate here in kind between upper and lower can also be accepted, but I think he uses water where Rambam uses upper water. On one view, everything that's "up/higher" should be holier (for those who consider degrees of holiness as continuous
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Еще один аргумент антирелигиозной пропаганды "разлетается как дым". Этот отрывок в советское время страшно ругали, "мол, какая жестокая религия, запрещает деревьями любоваться". А деревья - не обычные земные.
R. Akiba said to them: When ye arrive at the stones of pure marble, say not, water, water! For it is said: He that speaketh falsehood shall not be established before mine eyes.
From here can be derived an explanation that seems to me better than others. "Water water" refers to separation of waters below and above the firmament in Genesis 1, the marble stones represent the separated waters in Pardes/Olam HaBa; but there/then, separation is no more ("the realm of purity"); hence R. Akiva's warning: do not say they are still separate there.
This line of explanation can be loosely suggested by the commentary on Vayelech by R. Schneerson/R. Sacks.
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I am quite at a loss with Akiba's saying. I could suppose a meaning like "when you get there don't take mere crystal ('pure marble') for water [of life]" (i.e. "don't take the clarity of appearance for the clarity of substance" or something similar), which seems to agree with your understanding. This would find some support (a) in the fact that "water" is sometimes used for "water of life", (b) in Ex. 24:10 (at least as MN 1:28 understands it), (c) in Akiba's own quote from Ps. 101:7 ("falsehood" must be degrading enough to deserve such a judgment). Yet this is inconclusive, and contradicts the Soncino note on "say not, water, water!": "I.e., how can we proceed!" The note is hardly to be just dismissed, meanwhile it means something seemingly strange ("proceed and don't be scared by false obstacles!"??).
I googled "stones of pure marble" and the 1st thing I ( ... )
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Of your references I agree with everything in 1st paragraph except "mere crystal" (see separate comment), and Soncino, with caveats (see below). R. Schneerson's explanation looks weak and questionable. 3Enoch/Hekalot and r. Yaakov are better, thanks.
I can throw in Rambam (MN 2:30) for good measure, who calls it "how clearly and distinctly this passage explains the subject for those who reflect on it!", and then proceeds to undermine this point with gratuitous(?) reference to meteorology. Yet again, perhaps here also "it was considered necessary to make this one of the most hidden secrets, in order to prevent the multitude from knowing it."
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This is NOT my view at all; and it is unclear what made you think so!? (Perhaps I might need to rephrase something, to clear this up?) I took this to be YOUR position, based on "don't take mere crystal ('pure marble') for water [of life]", in your root comment. I took exception to this view here, and further clarified meaning here.
Now, given that understanding I can tentatively accept Marble as more perfect holy than Water, on the theory that at Sinai Water was accessible to all Hebrews, whereas Marble/Tablets only to Moshe.
As to the upper waters, both the concept itself and relative rankings are ambivalent, Rambam doesn't articulate nuances enough. Arizal/Schneerson view that there's only one water, and no need to differentiate here in kind between upper and lower can also be accepted, but I think he uses water where Rambam uses upper water. On one view, everything that's "up/higher" should be holier (for those who consider degrees of holiness as continuous ( ... )
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Со ссылками на Гемару!? Может быть, Вы помните, где именно Вы встречали эту критику?
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From here can be derived an explanation that seems to me better than others. "Water water" refers to separation of waters below and above the firmament in Genesis 1, the marble stones represent the separated waters in Pardes/Olam HaBa; but there/then, separation is no more ("the realm of purity"); hence R. Akiva's warning: do not say they are still separate there.
This line of explanation can be loosely suggested by the commentary on Vayelech by R. Schneerson/R. Sacks.
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