As for worker safety, the plant's workmen's comp carrier can send out their own people who can require changes that do a better job of protecting workers than a group of rabbis. Also at least in some states, the more injuries you have the higher your premium is. So the economics of workmen's comp gives you an incentive to go beyond the state and federal legal standards. As for animal welfare, okay I can see the Conservatives point on that, but many of the other things they want seem to be political. What does treifus have to do with what you pay your workers? There's no principled reason for the Conservatives to stop where they did, They could just as easily require that the plant management support any political agenda a majority of the rabbis want.
your arguments re insurance carriers don't work when workers fear termination as retaliation or when workers are illegals and fear being sent back to some god forsaken third world country.
My argument is that how you treat workers, etc, reflects on a company's honesty & integrity and that reflects on their kashrus. So say that you knew that I beat my spouse and cheated on my taxes and laundered my money and molested little children in my free time. Would you feel comfortable with relying on the kashrus of my food?
Kashrus is all about trust and I think the Magen Tzedek people have a good argument in the sense that employers who cut corners legally and ethically may also possibly cut corners halachically.
But the whole reason we have kashrus agencies and mashgichim is that we don’t trust, because vendors have a financial incentive to pass treyf food off as kosher.
I can see why someone selling kosher meat requires stricter supervision than one who sells, say, breakfast cereal, because the incentive to cheat is so much greater. But if two vendors have been audited for kashrut to the same conventional standards, and then one has been discovered to be cheating its workers, I am not convinced that it is any more likely to have cheated the mashgiach as well.
But the whole reason we have kashrus agencies and mashgichim is that we don’t trust, because vendors have a financial incentive to pass treyf food off as kosher
I can see why someone selling kosher meat requires stricter supervision than one who sells, say, breakfast cereal, because the incentive to cheat is so much greater. But if two vendors have been audited for kashrut to the same conventional standards, and then one has been discovered to be cheating its workers, I am not convinced that it is any more likely to have cheated the mashgiach as well.
So you don't think that an employer who risks fines and imprisonment to save money ( say by hiring illegals or children) is more likely to risk the frum world's condemnation by lying to the mashgiach than an employer who follows secular law down to the minutest details? Really?
Re: Appreciate the lofty goals but.....sethg_primeMay 5 2011, 16:51:18 UTC
As long as synagogues are educating consumers, it’s worth pointing out that thirty years of “government is the problem” rhetoric has had a number of pernicious effects, and one of them is that the government agencies responsible for enforcing food safety have been understaffed.
on Rav Dworkin's z"l shechita ban
anonymous
May 6 2011, 04:16:14 UTC
The reason for the ban WAS directly connected with kashrus. The Satmar Beis Din refused to condem violence perpetrated by some members of their community against Rabbi Wechter and Rabbi Korf. The message they sent behind the scenes was that they did not want to anger the hooligans who were on the 'holy war' path against Chabad's recruitment activities. Rav Dworkin's response was that rabbonim who are afraid to voice their opinion out fear of reprisals can't be trusted to supervise kosher food production"
Re: on Rav Dworkin's z"l shechita banonionsoupmixMay 6 2011, 04:24:25 UTC
Right, that's what I'm saying. People's behavior reflects on their integrity and that reflects on their kashrus. So if someone treats his workers like crap and cuts corners with the secular law, perhaps that person can't be trusted with kashrus.
What kind of secular law would a person have to violate for you personally to be uncomftable eating in his house because of a concern that maybe his kashrus can't be trusted?
Re: on Rav Dworkin's z"l shechita ban
anonymous
May 6 2011, 12:33:56 UTC
If we define 'secular' as something that is prohibited ONLY in under the secular law (forget the whole 'dina demalchusa' for the purpose of this discussion to avoid confusion between secular and religious law), then my answer to your question - 'none'.
However, I can't think any religious law violation either that would make me not trust said violator in their kashrus except for: - kashrus-related violation (either direct or through false testimony) - public Shabbos desecration.
Why, might you ask? Because a 'mumor ledovor echod' is not automatically suspect for other sins.
Clearly in the example with Rav Dworkin, he was concerned that those rabbonim might give false kashrus testimony out of fear of some thug constituent. For what Rabbi Dworkin saw was a dangerous confluence: - a community where violent thugs were aloud to run rampent; - rabbonim who were afraid to even speak out against their actions. In other words, it WAS a kashrus concern.
Re: on Rav Dworkin's z"l shechita banonionsoupmixMay 6 2011, 12:47:56 UTC
only kashrus and shabbos? That's a bit limited, I think. Take murder and adultery. You have irrefutable proof that someone committed both of these and now what? You would be okay with eating something he prepared, leaving personal distate for the actions aside? What abt AZ?
You said if the company provides health Care, Well its not against the law NOT to provide Health Care. Its also NOT against the law to give more than 3 Month Maternity leave.
Its also NOT against the law to pay low wages (as long as its above Minimum wage)
As far as I know the only US company that would have been anywhere NEAR these standards was Ben and Jerry's Ice Cream BEFORE Unilever bought them
The Conservative Movementext_229051May 8 2011, 05:58:00 UTC
The standards behind the so-called "Hechsher" are not the issue. The real issue is the so-called "Conservative" movement.
The Agudath Israel does not trust the "Conservative" movement (nor, for that matter, do I). The Agudath Israel believes (as do I) that this Magen Tzedek is a part of a broader insidious agenda. This is why the Agudath Israel is uncomfortable with it under any circumstances (as am I).
But the word "ethics" is, at this time, particularly painful to the Agudath Israel because it has, of late, overlooked too many ethical lapses of too many people who nominally are in its own camp. Which wouldn't be so bad, except that now, the Agudath Israel has been called out on more and more of these than in the past, and cannot just sweep them under the rug any longer. Which is very difficult for an organization that purports itself to occupy the high ethical ground.
Comments 62
There's no principled reason for the Conservatives to stop where they did, They could just as easily require that the plant management support any political agenda a majority of the rabbis want.
Ichabod Chrain
Reply
My argument is that how you treat workers, etc, reflects on a company's honesty & integrity and that reflects on their kashrus. So say that you knew that I beat my spouse and cheated on my taxes and laundered my money and molested little children in my free time. Would you feel comfortable with relying on the kashrus of my food?
Kashrus is all about trust and I think the Magen Tzedek people have a good argument in the sense that employers who cut corners legally and ethically may also possibly cut corners halachically.
Reply
I can see why someone selling kosher meat requires stricter supervision than one who sells, say, breakfast cereal, because the incentive to cheat is so much greater. But if two vendors have been audited for kashrut to the same conventional standards, and then one has been discovered to be cheating its workers, I am not convinced that it is any more likely to have cheated the mashgiach as well.
Reply
I can see why someone selling kosher meat requires stricter supervision than one who sells, say, breakfast cereal, because the incentive to cheat is so much greater. But if two vendors have been audited for kashrut to the same conventional standards, and then one has been discovered to be cheating its workers, I am not convinced that it is any more likely to have cheated the mashgiach as well.
So you don't think that an employer who risks fines and imprisonment to save money ( say by hiring illegals or children) is more likely to risk the frum world's condemnation by lying to the mashgiach than an employer who follows secular law down to the minutest details? Really?
Reply
Reply
Reply
- cfkaMP
Reply
What kind of secular law would a person have to violate for you personally to be uncomftable eating in his house because of a concern that maybe his kashrus can't be trusted?
Reply
However, I can't think any religious law violation either that would make me not trust said violator in their kashrus except for:
- kashrus-related violation (either direct or through false testimony)
- public Shabbos desecration.
Why, might you ask? Because a 'mumor ledovor echod' is not automatically suspect for other sins.
Clearly in the example with Rav Dworkin, he was concerned that those rabbonim might give false kashrus testimony out of fear of some thug constituent. For what Rabbi Dworkin saw was a dangerous confluence:
- a community where violent thugs were aloud to run rampent;
- rabbonim who were afraid to even speak out against their actions.
In other words, it WAS a kashrus concern.
-cfkaMP
Reply
Reply
You said if the company provides health Care, Well its not against the law NOT to provide Health Care. Its also NOT against the law to give more than 3 Month Maternity leave.
Its also NOT against the law to pay low wages (as long as its above Minimum wage)
As far as I know the only US company that would have been anywhere NEAR these standards was Ben and Jerry's Ice Cream BEFORE Unilever bought them
Reply
If you want to offer your own seal with lower standards, go for it.
Reply
The Agudath Israel does not trust the "Conservative" movement (nor, for that matter, do I). The Agudath Israel believes (as do I) that this Magen Tzedek is a part of a broader insidious agenda. This is why the Agudath Israel is uncomfortable with it under any circumstances (as am I).
But the word "ethics" is, at this time, particularly painful to the Agudath Israel because it has, of late, overlooked too many ethical lapses of too many people who nominally are in its own camp. Which wouldn't be so bad, except that now, the Agudath Israel has been called out on more and more of these than in the past, and cannot just sweep them under the rug any longer. Which is very difficult for an organization that purports itself to occupy the high ethical ground.
Reply
Leave a comment