Deep stuff. and not too far off from what I feel personally as well. Some thoughts: I personally doubt techiat hamaisim as well as moshiach. (there are many Rishonim who felt the same way, by the way.)
The flip side to what you are saying is the idea that fasting (and all mitzvot in general) is about working on yourself and improving yourself vis-a-vis your religion. Its not so much what God cares about here as about what affect fasting and mitzvot has on you.
Additionally, once you start deciding to drop mitzvot then where do you draw the line....? It gets tricky real fast.
As a lifelong Orthodox Jew, I too am struggling with faith and god like yourself and appreciate your thoughtful posts.
Re: ThoughtsonionsoupmixAugust 5 2011, 12:36:59 UTC
Thanks.
Who are the rishonim who doubted moshiach? I only know of that one guy in gemara sanhedrin who held that moshiach already came during chizkiyahu's reign?
Re: Thoughts
anonymous
August 7 2011, 06:17:41 UTC
I honestly don't remember offhand but I suggest you run, don't walk, and get a copy of Dr. Marc Shapiro's book: "The Limits of Orthodox Theology" where he goes through them in-depth. He also covers other aspects of Jewish belief which was extremely enlightening given that we've been brainwashed by the Yeshivish world for the past 50 years or so to think that certain principles are 100% accepted. It will blow you away what some of the Rishonim believed. Run, don't walk!
Re: If you don't fast you'll go to hellonionsoupmixAugust 5 2011, 12:43:15 UTC
But I don't believe that. Why should I?
Hell is not a big part of Judaic philosophy in general. And in specific, I haven't seen anything which directly correlates not fasting on tishabav to burning in hell.
My idea of a deity, if he exists, is not someone who condemns a person to hell because that person didn't feel like starving one day. Hell is maybe reserved for people who kidnapp litttle children and dismember them.
Anyway, I don't really know what hell is. When you die, you cease feeling physical pain. So what is hell if the body doesn't feel any pain?
Is there any reason to fast if I don't believe in hell?
My wife thinks that Tisha Beav is still important so we should keep it. In addition, my parents are here. So I may have to go to shul briefly in the morning, then go to work and at least drink (don't care so much about the food). It's an absolute pain in the ass and I think I will read some Dawkins on purpose to make sure I don't care about any Beis Hamikdosh ;)
Big and understanding hug from the other side of the ocean!
Well, will you go for it? Or will you fast, and if so, then why?
And what if it is true? It's kind of like Pascal's Wager here Alas, Pascal's Wager doesn't really work when it comes to matters of practice. And here's why: any practical argument propelled by it is fully reversible. In other words, the mathematical probability of existence of a God (or god, for the sake of the argument) who wants you to fast on that day equals the mathematical probability of existence of a god who wants you to eat on that day.
Why do you fast? I believe you know my reasons, as I described them to you previously. If not, shall be happy to reiterate.
Just because it is halacha? Well, yeah, pretty much, that's about the size of it.
Do you believe in moshiach, in techias hameisim? The jury's still out on that one. That is, I certainly do believe in both Moshiach and techias hameisim, but am not entirely sure what either means.
Do you think Hashem would take it personally if you didn't fast? No, I do not.
Do you believe that whole part about how if
( ... )
Re: Great postonionsoupmixAugust 5 2011, 19:10:46 UTC
lol, I am not being coy. I just think that a hypocrit is sometimes defined as a person who does not believe in what she does. I know you have a different, more precise definition.
And a masochist? That's a person who needlessly causes herself pain. Which is what I would be, I think, if I fasted for no reason.
I am interested in hearing more about why you fast. Why does halacha matter to you if Hashem won't take it personally.
Pascal's Wager: I understand your math point, but alas, I have heard over and over again about a god who wants me to fast and nothing, ever about a god who particularly wishes for me to stuff my face on that day.
Moshiach & Techias Hameisim: I would also be interested to hear what exactly you believe. If you do believe in it, what exactly do you believe in? Do you have some sort of alternative vision of a utopian society? What is it?
I fast, but...ext_733277August 5 2011, 12:57:53 UTC
I don't much like it, and I don't really get anything out of it. As to your point, "How does God have the right to demand anything of us, being that no one (sane) has heard from him at least anytime in the last two thousand years?" I think it's worth noting that nobody's claiming that God is demanding this fast-- it's just his self-appointed representatives who have instituted this, to make sure we all feel sufficiently bad about not being able to sacrifice animals in the temple. Why do I fast? Just because that's what we do on Tisha b'Av. If I didn't live in a frum community and wear this silly kippah and my wife didn't care about this stuff, I'm pretty sure I'd drop it.
Comments 89
Some thoughts:
I personally doubt techiat hamaisim as well as moshiach. (there are many Rishonim who felt the same way, by the way.)
The flip side to what you are saying is the idea that fasting (and all mitzvot in general) is about working on yourself and improving yourself vis-a-vis your religion. Its not so much what God cares about here as about what affect fasting and mitzvot has on you.
Additionally, once you start deciding to drop mitzvot then where do you draw the line....? It gets tricky real fast.
As a lifelong Orthodox Jew, I too am struggling with faith and god like yourself and appreciate your thoughtful posts.
Reply
Who are the rishonim who doubted moshiach? I only know of that one guy in gemara sanhedrin who held that moshiach already came during chizkiyahu's reign?
Reply
Reply
He also covers other aspects of Jewish belief which was extremely enlightening given that we've been brainwashed by the Yeshivish world for the past 50 years or so to think that certain principles are 100% accepted. It will blow you away what some of the Rishonim believed.
Run, don't walk!
Reply
Reply
Reply
Hell is not a big part of Judaic philosophy in general. And in specific, I haven't seen anything which directly correlates not fasting on tishabav to burning in hell.
My idea of a deity, if he exists, is not someone who condemns a person to hell because that person didn't feel like starving one day. Hell is maybe reserved for people who kidnapp litttle children and dismember them.
Anyway, I don't really know what hell is. When you die, you cease feeling physical pain. So what is hell if the body doesn't feel any pain?
Is there any reason to fast if I don't believe in hell?
Reply
Reply
Big and understanding hug from the other side of the ocean!
Reply
Reply
Or will you fast, and if so, then why?
And what if it is true? It's kind of like Pascal's Wager here
Alas, Pascal's Wager doesn't really work when it comes to matters of practice. And here's why: any practical argument propelled by it is fully reversible. In other words, the mathematical probability of existence of a God (or god, for the sake of the argument) who wants you to fast on that day equals the mathematical probability of existence of a god who wants you to eat on that day.
Why do you fast?
I believe you know my reasons, as I described them to you previously. If not, shall be happy to reiterate.
Just because it is halacha?
Well, yeah, pretty much, that's about the size of it.
Do you believe in moshiach, in techias hameisim?
The jury's still out on that one. That is, I certainly do believe in both Moshiach and techias hameisim, but am not entirely sure what either means.
Do you think Hashem would take it personally if you didn't fast?
No, I do not.
Do you believe that whole part about how if ( ... )
Reply
And a masochist? That's a person who needlessly causes herself pain. Which is what I would be, I think, if I fasted for no reason.
I am interested in hearing more about why you fast. Why does halacha matter to you if Hashem won't take it personally.
Pascal's Wager: I understand your math point, but alas, I have heard over and over again about a god who wants me to fast and nothing, ever about a god who particularly wishes for me to stuff my face on that day.
Moshiach & Techias Hameisim: I would also be interested to hear what exactly you believe. If you do believe in it, what exactly do you believe in? Do you have some sort of alternative vision of a utopian society? What is it?
Reply
Why do I fast? Just because that's what we do on Tisha b'Av. If I didn't live in a frum community and wear this silly kippah and my wife didn't care about this stuff, I'm pretty sure I'd drop it.
Reply
Reply
Reply
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